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Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

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ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Please let me know what's stamped into the cross member when you get all the goo off.

Thanks!

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

FuzzFace2

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Harbor Freight has them wooden dollies placed under the pallets so you could roll it around works good.
For a bit I used them dollies you place under the tires to move the car / truck around, I have 2 set of 4.
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

After we got home last night my brother suggested we should have drenched the thing in Dawn for the drive home. He was expecting that we got what they got, a downpour, and that plus the 70 MPH I was towing at would have helped. But, we didn't get any rain until during the night, so I doubt that would have helped much.

I'm not sure what oven cleaner does to paint, and the thing is sitting on my fairly new trailer so I don't want anything too caustic. I'm leaning to the suggestion of stopping at the parts store and getting several cans of degreaser and continuing on to the car wash.

Having said that, I mentioned the need for a power washer to Janey on the way home last night and she thought it was a good idea as there are many uses. When we got home the neighbors across the street were out and when I dropped the trailer in front of their house they came over. During the conversation he said he's just bought a power washer to get rid of the mess the worms are leaving on the concrete, and that Tractor Supply has them on sale right now. So, since I also need to clean Big Blue up after pulling the engine.... Hmmm, I also have to clean that engine.

As for swinging by Billy's place, it is a long way out of the way. And, both he and Chris want me to strip the axle of everything but the diff and just bring that. So I have a lot of cleaning and stripping to do.

But, that does bring up a question to y'all with which I'm wrestling. Billy may have a 3.54 ring & pinion, used, as he said he'd swap for $50. I need to confirm what he meant by that, but that was my understanding. However, he has no experience with Ox. In fact, he hadn't heard of them. But, he really liked what I told him out them.

On the other hand, Chris has installed lots of them and really likes them. But he wasn't high at all on the idea of installing a used ring and pinion as he's had problems doing that. And, he's had to take some things back that he's taken to Billy as Billy had someone else do them and that someone isn't as meticulous as Billy. On the other hand, he said Billy will be less expensive for what I want to have done than he will be.

So, what are your thoughts about a used ring & pinion? And, what questions should I be asking either of them in order to decide?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by FuzzFace2

Jim - Will do. But do you know where to look?

Dave - I have two skates for wheels, and will probably use them to roll things around on.

However, once it is fairly clean I'll probably work on the trailer to disassemble things. And I'll use the shop crane to lift off the bits that don't seem light enough to move by hand, like the axle. Then once I'm down to the frame & cross members I'll lift it down as well.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Bring or buy a parts brush for that degreaser.
Applying it first will give it a chance to soak in.

I always think of a set of gears as having 'married' when run in, but have no problems with running a pair IF THE SETUP IS GOOD AND THE CONTACT IS THE SAME.
(and I rode desmodromic Ducati's for decades)

I had no idea where either Billy or Chris was located.
Given your intention for an OX locker, I'd go with Chris.
I'd rather pay more and have it done right the first time than pay someone to be their learning curve.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

IIRC,it was the rear face of the cross member.

You will see it when the thing is clean.
I noticed it when I power washed my engine bay (as you pictured) and I wasn't even looking.

I edited my welding response to ask a few questions of you.
Just trying to get a clearer picture.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Jim - We are thinking alike on which guy to go with. I sure don't want any problems, and Chris knows his way around the OX. so....

As for the #'s on the cross member, I'll look there.

Concerning your questions, which are in bold and my answers in plain text:

How did you repair the frame when it broke behind the steering box? The crack was in what Ford calls the "steering gear liner" and that is technically not the frame itself. But, I did grind out and then weld up the crack.

Do you feel that weld compromised the structural integrity of the vehicle? No, I do not.
Partially because I now realize that what I was welding on was not the frame, so there is still the frame that runs along side the steering gear liner and I did not weld on it. And partially because it is on an F150 that does not have large tires, has a fairly light engine and, hopefully, won't be taken off road.

Why has your attitude changed since then? Because I've read several Ford publications that say not to weld on the frame.

So, we shall see what I do on Big Blue when I find the clunk that has become very, very consistent. Perhaps it is the steering gear liner, and I now have a replacement as well as the instructions on how to replace it. Perhaps it is a broken rivet or three. Or maybe the engine cross member has cracked from the hacking. But given the weight of the massive engine, the winch and winch bumper, the aux battery, and large tires, plus the plans to take it off the road and into conditions which will twist the frame in many ways, everything needs to be well done.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

This post was updated on .

**I'd like to thank you for your thoughtful replies.

One good way to judge at a glance if the steering box has broken the frame is to have someone else turn the wheel lock to lock while you stand in front and look at the bumper.
If the frame is cracked you will see the left side (right to you) rise and fall distinctly.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

I'll give that a try. There's something amiss in there as the clunk happens essentially every time I turn the wheel very far. And, since I hope to drive it to the FORDification show in Anderson, MO in a couple of weeks maybe I'd better find out what the problem is.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

I've had big issues with ball joints on my truck.

You have a lift so if looking at the bumper doesn't show anything get the suspension unloaded and use a pry bar on the knuckles.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

FuzzFace2

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

On the oven cleaner yea I don't think I would use it in your case. My old trailer is open in the center and the paint not so great, many years since it was painted last.

I would still scrap the heavy stuff off and as you said degreaser and a parts washing brush.
I find if you can keep it wet so it can work in the better.

On the used R&P I am not a fan to go used - only new for me as they are hard enough to set up with out needing to get it dead on where it was when used.

On that note the dealer had to replace the carrier bearings on my 02 Durango and reused the gears. Did not make it home 50 miles and they were starting to making noise. Called them and the next day took it back. After a little test drive with me driving as I knew how to make it happen they replaced the gears with new.
Dave ----

Steve83

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Banned User

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Because I've read several Ford publications that say not to weld on the frame.

What are they? Ford's instructions for welding the frame are in this caption, and in the links at the bottom:

Gary Lewis wrote

Perhaps it is a broken rivet or three. Or maybe the engine cross member has cracked...

Remember the frame noise TSB:

Nothing Special

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

.... But, that does bring up a question to y'all with which I'm wrestling. Billy may have a 3.54 ring & pinion, used, as he said he'd swap for $50. I need to confirm what he meant by that, but that was my understanding. However, he has no experience with Ox. In fact, he hadn't heard of them. But, he really liked what I told him out them.

On the other hand, Chris has installed lots of them and really likes them. But he wasn't high at all on the idea of installing a used ring and pinion as he's had problems doing that. And, he's had to take some things back that he's taken to Billy as Billy had someone else do them and that someone isn't as meticulous as Billy. On the other hand, he said Billy will be less expensive for what I want to have done than he will be.

I've only installed an OX so I can't really compare it to anything else. But from my experience I think anyone who can install any diff and set up the gears correctly can do an OX. There's really nothing special about getting it in the housing, it's all just mechanical so all you need to do is get the gears in the right positions by getting the shims right. The only hiccup I can even imagine would be pulling bearing off it if needed (and it was needed in my case). Even there, the bearings go on and off the same way as they would on any other diff, but at least with my open Dana 44 there was more clearance behind the bearings for the puller. Any puller that works on the OX would work on the open diff too, but I could imagine someone making a puller for the open diff that might not work on the OX.

The only OX-related complication I ran into with my Dana 44 was after the diff was in for good. I had some interference between the shifting fork and the boss the diff vent is pressed into. When I re-read the instructions it said to look for that and grind away enough of the boss to give clearance if needed. Instead I ground away enough of the shifting fork to give the needed clearance. (I think I'd have done it that way even if I was doing it with the diff out.)

Getting the shifter for the OX set up is definitely different than installing any other diff. But if you just bring him the axle he won't be doing that anyway (you'll need it in the truck for that). And I wouldn't see any reason for you to farm out that job anyway, you won't have trouble with it.

Gary Lewis wrote

So, what are your thoughts about a used ring & pinion? And, what questions should I be asking either of them in order to decide?

If it were me I'd get a new one, just because I don't think it's that much money and if I was going to be installing it myself I would want to be starting with a clean slate. However, especially in a front diff I wouldn't be concerned about using used gears. I'd want to know that they were actually a set and not out of two different diffs. And I'd want to know that there wasn't any obvious wear. But how many miles are you really ever going to put on a front diff? I can't imagine they could be bad enough to not easily live as long as you (or your kids) will need.

Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I've had big issues with ball joints on my truck.

You have a lift so if looking at the bumper doesn't show anything get the suspension unloaded and use a pry bar on the knuckles.

Jim - I don't have a lift on Big Blue. But I will us a pry bar as you suggested if I can't find the clunk. Thanks.

All - Thanks, I think I've come to the same conclusion - go with new gears.

And, I bought a pressure washer today and got the thing MUCH cleaner. (But I wound up wearing a lot of it.) Boy, that was one GREASY mess! But, I think I can now touch it w/o getting gooey, although there is still some cleaning to be done.

Anyway, I got down to the cross member, and it looks to be the right one, although it is hard to tell with those diesel stands/perches on it. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get those off and can get a pic from the same angle as Jim's to confirm it. But, here's Jim's pic:

And here's mine:

Steve - I've gone back to the one place I remember seeing "Welding Is Not Acceptable" and it is TSB 96-15-11 on replacing rivets with bolts. And it looks like I may have taken that statement out of context - especially with yours on welding.

(But I still do NOT want to weld that front frame section onto Big Blue.)

And, look what I found today on this front section - the engine cross member is welded to the frame on both ends. I may do that myself when I install it in Big Blue.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Sorry I was misunderstood.

You have a two post car lift, and can get the truck in the air with the suspension unloaded, so take a pry bar and see if the ball joints will shift over like they would when taking a turn.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Now for a new question/concern. I got to looking at Sky's picture of their 85-91 Ford F-350 4x4 2" Front Shackle Reversal (Superduty Spring) kit, shown below on the left, and Big Blue, shown on the right. It looks to me like their tube that joins the two sides is going to be roughly where my front spring perch is today, and that it will interfere with the part of my front hitch that attaches to the sway bar cross member.

But, that there won't be any interference with the bumper itself.

Does that look correct to y'all?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Nothing Special

Bob - I agree that either Billy or Chris should be able to do the Ox. But Chris has done it multiple times, which gives me confidence.

I'm going to send Chris a text message after the holiday and ask him for a quote to do the work. I think I know, but we didn't finish the conversation as he thought I wanted to go with Billy and his used ring and pinion.

Jim - Got it! Sorry. Yes, I have a lift and Big Blue can be on it.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I can see the Sky pic, but not yours, on my phone.

Yes, I'd imagine it would be in the way.
But with a winch bumper why not attach the ball there?
It's not like you are taking a trailer down the highway at 60 connected there.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Looking at things I finally see what the extra slots in the crossmember are for, the access to the Diesel mount attachments, they sit further forward than the 460 mounts. I just went back and looked at my pictures again, rear side of my crossmember is welded to the side rails also.

The bracket with rivet at the edge of the picture (a bit out of focus) is the right radius arm rear bracket.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Jim - The receiver does bolt to the 4 bolts holding the winch on. But, it also goes to the rear and is welded to that cross member. I did that to give it extra strength in case I wanted to use it as an extraction point. But it looks like I'll cut the receiver off short and dispense with the rear piece.

Bill - Yes, several things become obvious when you see them side by side. One is, I think, that the TTB brackets bolt into the two recessed places. Another is, as you pointed out, that the holes allow access to the diesel stands/perches.

And, it does look like I'll want to weld the rear side of the cross member to the frame, like the factory did. I don't know, yet, if Big Blue's cross member is welded, but there's gonna be a LOT of work getting that rascal out.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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