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Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

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Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

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I'd like to say that I understood every word of that. But, the truth is that I understood the principles and didn't get hung up on the words. And, while my Statics is slightly less "rusty" than Bill's, it is nonetheless about 50 years old. (Having said that, I ran statics and dynamics programs for Conoco a few years after that, so let's just say it is just very, very old.)

In any event, it looks like the F250 spring rates from this calculation are 2.5 times higher than those of an F350. (2.486 to be exact.) So, while the un-sprung weight of a D60 is higher than that of a D44HD, the fact that you get 2.5x the movement would make a huge difference in the ride as well as the articulation when on a trail.

I'm sold. And, I'm feeling like it is time to make a deal for the axle in OKC and take the trailer down and get it. Then order the stuff off ebay that David found, and shop 'round for SD springs and then order in the Sky kit.

But first I want to talk to Chris at Boomer's. Maybe tomorrow.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

FoxFord33

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

In reply to this post by Nothing Special

Nothing Special wrote

..."a fwee-ah ah-body ah-diagwam-ah"...

I was in middle/high school while my dad was going to OSU for engineering. I asked him what his homework was, and he replied, "Diffahwenchah Equazioahhh." I thought he was being silly, and in a way he was. His Differential Equations prof was from an undisclosed asian country. He just about failed the class because he made the mistake of trying to listen to the prof instead of looking at the math.

Ford Grand Wagoneer - 1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer preparing to receive a Ford drivetrain...

A Keeper - 1993 F-150 XLT Super-Cab 5.0 EFI 2WD E4OD 8.8" with 3.55 gear Sold it for my Grand Wagoneer project!

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

I wonder how many of those profs there were back then? I had one at Kansas State that wore a turban. I'd forgotten all about that until this conversation, but I believe he taught Calc, not Diff E.

While I'd like to blame my poor grade in that class on his English, the truth is that I just don't care for the theory all that much. That came to light in my Physics classes. We had two teachers - one that drove a new Vette but didn't know how to work on it, and one that was a true hands-on guy. I got along great with the latter and not so much with the former. The difference in the class room was that the hands-on guy would explain how to apply the theory in every-day terms, and that clicked with me. But the other one never associated the learning to actuality.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

IDK
I'm a simple man who never got to college.
Because of my differences I did well at geometry and trig, but not so well in calculus.

If I want to figure out something like this graphically I'll draw it out and factor the difference proportionally.
This (seems to me) a simple enough question that I won't get caught out and I can leave things like friction and the sideways bending moment on the spring alone.

Also, just at a glance I'd say the F-350 stack is far more progressive than the F-250's leafs.

But I'm interested, and always like to learn, so please continue.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I had a computer programming professor at, then, Old Dominion College, now Old Dominion University. Oscar Garcia, don't know where he was from, but his favorite line was "you do that you get a teelt". He taught us Fortran to program the school's IBM 1620 which was state of the art in 1964.

I ended up washing out as ODC was spun off from William and Mary in 1963 and was still very much a Liberal Arts school at the time. The department of engineering was new for 1964 and they had hired the retired dean of engineering from NC State to establish it. Dean Lampe was working hard to eliminate a lot of the liberal arts influence and build up the technical side.

ODU now, along with Virginia Tech partneres with my former employer, Newport News Shipbuilding, for continuing education for Apprentice School graduates and higher degrees (Masters, PHD) for engineers.

What sank me was English Composition and Literature 101, 13 lengthy themes required along with lots of required reading. Engineering majors were "allowed" to carry more credit hours due to the technical classes, such as engineering graphics, calculus, chemistry, computer programming along with the electives such as PE (I elected swimming and earned my Red Cross Water Safety Instructors certificate).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

I think "washing out" is how I'd like to portray my demise at Kansas State - where I'd also learned Fortran on a 1620 in '65. But, I suspect that "lack of study" would be the stated cause, not English Composition, for me.

But, that doesn't mean I'm good at the "liberal arts" stuff. I had a Western Lit class where the final was to be an essay on an as-yet un-named book which we'd studied. So I wrote essays on three of the probable choices and fine-tuned them with a friend for days before the final. Sure enough, two of the books I picked were options so I chose my best essay and wrote it from memory. And I got a C. My very best work, written and re-written over several days, was barely average.

"Engineering Graphics" - My time in that class was spent at a true drawing board with scales, protractors, mechanical pencils, and lots of erasers. But the better term for the class was "mechanical drawing".

Swimming? In '65 they lined us freshmen up by the pool in our gym clothes and asked us if we could swim. If you said "yes" they pushed you into the pool to prove it. I was stunned that my best friend, standing beside me, quickly said "no". I thought everyone knew how to swim as I'd grown up doing it. Anyway, I went into Judo instead.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Jim - Good point. Progressive springs is an aspect of the discussion that we've not covered, and which makes it more complicated. From what I remember of the 250 springs there are two full-length leaves. Do the 350 springs, and presumably the SD springs, have different length leaves?

I'm going to guess that the 250's lack of allowable travel forced Ford to use a single-rate spring. It had to be STIFF to ensure it doesn't hit the stop all the time. But with more allowable travel the 350 springs could be softer initially and then stiffen up as you near the stop.

How much distance is there between the spring and the stop on a 350? Or, how much travel is there? How 'bout the SD's? I'm just curious how big of a difference there is.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, same thing on the engineering graphics, I still have the T-square and can still draw out a design plan. The reason I selected the WSI class, I already had Red Cross junior lifesaving (got it when I was 13), BSA Lifesaving Merit Badge, BSA Lifeguard, and BSA mile swim. The instructor was a Red Cross Chapter representative, and he was able to waive the Red Cross Senior Lifesaving as the BSA qualifications were equivalent.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Jim, how much distance is there between the spring and the stop on a 350? Or, how much travel is there? How 'bout the SD's? I'm just curious how big of a difference there is.

I'm not any expert and Shaun or Jonathan would have better answers. (so a lot of conjecture here)

I think you mean the distance between the axle housing and the snubber on the frame rail?

Well, the D60 is smaller in diameter than the TTB box and you would be measuring to axle centerline.
So half of the difference in chord.

Then you have the arch of the F-350 spring when loaded vs the negative arch of the 250 spring.

On top of this you will have the shackle in the rear pointing down vs the spring eye centered in that perch.
You can see some of that on SORD'S instruction page.

I don't know where their front perch places the front spring eye in relation to the stock Ford shackle.
I assume their page is correct in saying that you will see a 2" lift over stock 350 springs, so there is that.

IDK how much more arch SD springs have (if any) over 350 springs, or what their sack height is since they are said to be "softer"

The axle obviously is not centered on the SD spring if the same rear mount was used and the bumper needs to be cut for the front.

The SD spring is 4" longer??
But if the LoPro mounts 2" rear of stock the axle would be centered.
I just don't know these details of the SROD SD kit because I never looked into it.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Nothing Special

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Jim - Good point. Progressive springs is an aspect of the discussion that we've not covered, and which makes it more complicated. From what I remember of the 250 springs there are two full-length leaves. Do the 350 springs, and presumably the SD springs, have different length leaves?

I'm going to guess that the 250's lack of allowable travel forced Ford to use a single-rate spring. It had to be STIFF to ensure it doesn't hit the stop all the time. But with more allowable travel the 350 springs could be softer initially and then stiffen up as you near the stop....

Whether the F-250 spring rate is linear or progressive isn't easy to see at first glance. By the look of it it would seem to be not nearly as progressive as the F-350 spring. But keep in mind the strange contortions the TTB geometry make it go through. As it moves it not only flexes like a normal leaf spring, but it also gets pulled sideways, a direction in which it is VERY stiff. I don't have any equations to support this (thankfully!!!), but I think the effective spring rate has to get a lot higher as it gets pulled around. (Which probably explains why the stiffness I calculated seemed too high. I was thinking about the stiffness in the normal bending direction which is likely lower than I calculated. It's the actual stiffness that I calculated, and as I just hand-waved here, that must be significantly higher than the "normal" stiffness. So using an F-250 spring on a solid axle probably isn't as completely stupid as my first calculation indicated. But it's still likely significantly stiffer than an F-350 spring, just not 2.5 times stiffer.)

Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins

Steve83

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Banned User

Nothing Special wrote

...the strange contortions the TTB geometry make it go through. As it moves it not only flexes like a normal leaf spring, but it also gets pulled sideways, a direction in which it is VERY stiff.

But it's really not moving much in that direction; the distance from the pivot to the spring center times (1- the cosine of the the travel angle). And none of that force affects the ride - it all gets applied between the pivot bushing & the 3 spring bushings (2 eyes & shackle). Without calculating any of it, I assume twisting the spring pack through the travel angle has a much-higher impact on effective spring rate than any lateral bending (which I don't think actually happens).

In any case... I'd say a coil spring suspension will always ride better than a leaf. I was working on a '97 F350 2WD duallie a few days ago; and I was shocked at how well it rode with a 4" lift & crappy mud tires (even before I did some repairs to the suspension).

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Nothing Special

I have to agree with Steve here.

The springs are trying to twist but because of the thicker (relation to the 350) leafs, rubber bushings at each end of the spring and the pivot I doubt there is enough to enter the equation.

This is why I discounted it before.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

FoxFord33

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

In reply to this post by Steve83

Steve83 wrote

'97 F350 2WD duallie...4" lift & crappy mud tires...

I work at a tire and service shop, and I don't understand... Other than maybe "what a good deal on these mud tires," but to go through a lift to support said tires baffles me. Are they planning to convert to 4wd? Not trying to ridicule, but honestly discussing my feelings about it; I feel that a thing should be used in the way it was designed. I have had to swallow that feeling many times at work while putting M/T or A/T tires on a 2wd vehicle.

Ford Grand Wagoneer - 1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer preparing to receive a Ford drivetrain...

A Keeper - 1993 F-150 XLT Super-Cab 5.0 EFI 2WD E4OD 8.8" with 3.55 gear Sold it for my Grand Wagoneer project!

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

This post was updated on .

Duallie's are are often used to haul stock, hay or water trailers around.

They have a hard time moving even on damp grass, let alone cow slop.

I can understand the want for any traction available in a farm vehicle.

If it's used for a car or travel trailer then the owner is compensating for an endowment issue.

(Just want to clarify that that was in NO way meant as a dig at Steve, just an explanation as to why some of your customers may want AT or MT tires on a dually.)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

I bought the same tires the counties here use on the school buses, they are Firestone Transforce 8 ply if I remember correctly and are capable of carrying more than Darth is rated for. Fronts are now 4 1/2 years old and still have excellent tread.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

I'm reading the mail, but spending most of my time on the phone. Here's the nid-day update:

Brandon/Bruno2: Honda runs like a sewing machine. Call Richard at Axle Transmissions & Transfers.
And talk to David at Harmon's.

Axle Transmission & Transfers: No D60's. "They go as fast as they come in."

Midway U-Pull: No trucks like that at present, but they think they recently bought an F350 like that and don't know if it is 4wd as it isn't in the inventory yet. But, I signed up to get a text if they get an '86-'97 F350 in stock.

Harmon's: No D60's. But they may have a double-cardan yoke for the BW1345. Will check and call back.

Big D: Boss man is out chasing 9" parts. Will have him call when he get's back.

Midwest Expedition Outfitters: No Dana stuff. We usually do Toyotas. Call Big D. Told him 'bout the website and forum and he said "You don't have a 9" pumpkin in 3.55 do you?" Guess what my response was. But, as a clue, he thanked me.

Jon Stittsworth/JStitts: Jon's in the insurance industry. Said to call George W. Smith Salvage City, Ada. And call Square Deal Auto Parts.

George Smith: Don't think so, but will call back after checking.

Square Deal: Don't have anything like that.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

1986F150Six

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Time for a cup of Joe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQDz6oh5vPI

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Lol! NO! I've had three cups of Joe today and my tummy is NOT happy. Just took a Tagamet and a "few" Tums.

The guy from George Smith called and they don't have a D60. But he said to call another outfit. And that guy said they have a few in C&C's with DRW's but they are "worn out". They want $650 for them. But, obviously, they'll have the wrong hubs and probably the wrong ratio.

However, he says they have an '88 F350 SRW w/TTB's and 3.54. We discussed that a bit with me saying it really should be a D60 as TTB's (he called them "the scissors suspension") were not used in the F350's. He's gone to look and is to call back.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

Maybe a cab swap on a rotten 250?

Otherwise,.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Administrator

No more info. No returned calls. Just lots of robo calls.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

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Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Brandon/Bruno2: Honda runs like a sewing machine. Call Richard at Axle Transmissions & Transfers. And talk to David at Harmon's.

Axle Transmission & Transfers: No D60's. "They go as fast as they come in."

Midway U-Pull: No trucks like that at present, but they think they recently bought an F350 like that and don't know if it is 4wd as it isn't in the inventory yet. But, I signed up to get a text if they get an '86-'97 F350 in stock.

Harmon's: No D60's. But they may have a double-cardan yoke for the BW1345. Will check and call back.

Big D: Boss man is out chasing 9" parts. Will have him call when he get's back.

Midwest Expedition Outfitters: No Dana stuff. We usually do Toyotas. Call Big D. Told him 'bout the website and forum and he said "You don't have a 9" pumpkin in 3.55 do you?" Guess what my response was. But, as a clue, he thanked me.

Jon Stittsworth/JStitts: Jon's in the insurance industry. Said to call George W. Smith Salvage City, Ada. And call Square Deal Auto Parts.

George Smith: Don't think so, but will call back after checking.

Square Deal: Don't have anything like that.

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Re: Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Brandon/Bruno2: Honda runs like a sewing machine. Call Richard at Axle Transmissions & Transfers.
And talk to David at Harmon's.