Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

Ahhh!  Here I was thinking the D60 is a pumpkin, but then I remember that the Ox comes with a new cover.  So, it isn't a pumpkin.  Good point.  

Gary Lewis wrote

....  Then the question becomes what, if anything, to do about a locker.  I've re-read what was said earlier in this thread about front lockers, and the only thing I'd want to do is a selectable unit, like the Ox.  And that's another $1300 w/o shipping but including electric shift and an installation kit.

....  Plus, does the Ox need professional installation?

Does the OX need professional installation?  For most people I'd answer this "If you need to ask, then you probably shouldn't do it yourself".  But Gary, you aren't most people.  You just need to ask.  I get that!  

But seriously, it's not a job for the faint-of-heart, or the impatient.  I installed an OX in the front Dana 44 of my Bronco last year.  Here's a link to my project thread on another forum (the OX install starts at post #96).  As I understand the Dana 60 goes about the same as a 44, except that the parts are bigger and heavier.

"They say" you need a case spreader to pull the case open so the diff will drop in and out.  If you have a diff spreader (and they can be made pretty easily if you're of a mind to) I'd certainly use it.  But you can pry the diff out and tap it in with a mallet too.  You need some slightly specialized tools (a magnetic base dial indicator and a torque wrench that reads in lb-in), as well as a way for the lb-in torque wrench to turn the pinion.  And you need gear marking compound (I guess "Prussian Blue" used to be the go-to, but all I've ever seen in pictures is the yellow grease I used, which was hard to find).  You need a way to press the bearings on (a hydraulic press makes it much easier).  And while "they say" that set-up bearings make it possible to do without pulling and reinstalling bearings, I found that not to be true, so a bearing puller is probably needed.

Nothing about installing a diff is rocket science, but it is putzy work, trying to get the shims in the right places to get everything right.  Check out my thread (linked above) to see what I went through.  And I wasn't changing the gearing, so I just left the pinion gear where it was.  If you are changing gears when you install the diff you'll need to get the pinion depth adjusted too.  That will be more of the same as getting the carrier shims correct.

So should you do it yourself?  Gary, for you I would NOT suggest that if the goal is to save money.  Yes, doing it yourself will save money, but I think you are well enough off that you won't value the several hundred bucks enough to be worth the hassle.  On the other hand, if you just want to do it because you like working on your truck, then go for it.  I'm sure you are up to it, as long as you are committed to it.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  Also, is there any significant advantage to doing the locker while the axle is out of the truck?  Or might that be done later?

If you are doing it yourself, definitely do it out of the vehicle.  It will be a lot easier to get in a comfortable position to work on it.  If you are taking it in, as Shaun said, it's mostly a matter of whether you want to take the truck or just the axle to the shop.  The cost likely won't be significantly different either way.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  I really need to understand what I'm getting into before pulling the trigger, so would appreciate y'all thinking this through with me.  And, as a reminder, I'm outfitting BB to be a competent overlander so I can take Janey wheeling in CO and then take my son on some more strenuous trips.  But I don't think we'll ever take seriously challenging courses.

I'll take this question to mean "Should I install a front locker for my use?"  I'd answer that yes, you should, but you don't really need to.  I've done almost all of my fourwheeling with a rear automatic locker and an open front, and that works out pretty well (your rear TrueTrac won't be quite as effective, but will still do pretty well paired with an open front).  But after putting the OX in the front of my Bronco I've learned first-hand how beneficial it really is.  When you stick a front tire against a rock that will test your articulation (probably more of an issue with my Bronco that your F-250 if you can believe that), the front locker lets the tire just walk over rather than needing to get the right combination of line and momentum with the open diff (and with a TrueTracs a rear locker that difference would be a little more important).

You have a winch, which will almost always be a good tool to get you past a spot where you might need a front locker.  With an open front you'll probably be able to go anywhere you want to / should go.  But if you have the locker you won't need to "pull rope" as often and it'll be easier.

The 'yellow paste' is used by machinists and machine rebuilders to mark ways and surfaces for scraping.
Those iridecent looking planes create space for lubrication while keeping incredibly tight tolerances.

I've only used zinc oxide.
The white paste you used to see on the lifeguard's nose.
It works for me and is available everywhere for cheap.

Jim - I think I have a tube of the yellow stuff I bought decades ago when I was going to set up a diff on a VW kombi, which didn't happen.

Bob - I have all the tools but the case spreader, and even a 4-jaw chuck, which I have never used but know how to do from my class a few years ago.  But, having read through your post on FTE, I agree that's something I'd rather not do as it is too time consuming.

So the game plan for tomorrow is to call the outfit in OKC and get pricing on all of the bits previously discussed, inc both the F350 and SD springs.  And, call the local salvage back and see if they have the SD springs.  Plus call the salvage that has the DRW axle and see which of their advert's is right - 3.54 or 4.10, although it is pretty sure to be 4.10.

Then, assuming the storms hold off, we are headed into Tulsa and I'm going to stop by 4WD Parts and talk with them to see what they carry, what their price would be to install, etc.  (There may be less expensive places in town, but their prices on parts and labor should give me a good idea of what the prices will be.)

And all that info will let me put together the all-up cost and help me make a decision.

However, I'll ask again: Is it not possible to put a set of, say, SD springs on the TTB's I have and gain some decent articulation & ride but save $2k?  It would seem that an RSK and the longer springs would not only put some distance between the spring and bump stop, but also let the tire move to the rear and be much more supple.

Or, said another way, is the D60/SD springs/Sky kit worth the $2k to get the ride, articulation, etc?

Gary, when I was redoing Darth, one of the problems was a spun inner rear wheel bearing on the left side. I had hand filed the tube and fitted a new bearing, but I knew it wasn't right (generally had to put a seal in and wash the brake shoes yearly for inspection). I bought a used dually rear that had a 4.10 gear in it, but I had a Traction Loc 3.55 from and F250 (parts truck). I used the 3.55 Traction Loc gears in the housing that had the 4.10 set (small loss, they had water damage from sitting).

I bought an install kit for the Sterling 10.25" and with help from an attractive 14 year old assistant ("granddaughter") I transferred the innards. I used a friend's press to change the pinion bearings since I didn't want to mix and match them and salvaging the cups would be risky. If I remember the pinion shims are between the pinion and inner bearing cone. I used the same thickness shim and new bearings.

On the side bearings, since they appeared virtually undamaged, I reused them, keeping the sets together. The shim kit had multiple thickness shims for the preload, I did a setup for preload with no pinion so I could keep the combined thickness at the needed thickness for the preload.

I assembled the pinion and crush sleeve to the proper preload with no seal. I then put the differential in with the previously determined shim packs. I used Prussian Blue (high spot) and rolled a pattern, I must have been living right as the drive side was centered on both the pinion and ring gears, coast was a little low, but in tolerance according to the patterns in the manual.

Once I had that, I removed the yoke and installed the seal, my turning torque was right where it should be with reused side bearings.

Since the old rear was still under the frame, I used the rear of the frame as a workstand., put it at just the right height and wasn't going to be damaged by the weight (I used my cherry picker to lift it up there).

Gary Lewis wrote

....  However, I'll ask again: Is it not possible to put a set of, say, SD springs on the TTB's I have and gain some decent articulation & ride but save $2k?  It would seem that an RSK and the longer springs would not only put some distance between the spring and bump stop, but also let the tire move to the rear and be much more supple.

Or, said another way, is the D60/SD springs/Sky kit worth the $2k to get the ride, articulation, etc?

I've only ever heard one person say that the F-250s TTB can be made into a good riding suspension.  I don't say that to discourage you, but if you want good info on how to make Big Blue ride well, that one person might be the one to talk to.  (For what it's worth, as I've said here before, I really don't think my '97 F-250 rides that bad.  But I wouldn't be one to argue that it has a particularly good ride.)

Anyway, I think the guy I'm thinking of goes by the screen name '89F2urd on FTE.  I'f I'm remembering the correct person, he's argued several times that a lifted F-250, still on leaf springs, can have a good ride if done well.  You might want to see if you can find out what he has to say about it.

edit to add:  I did a quick search on FTE for posts with TTB in them by '89F2urd.  That's definitely the guy I was thinking of.  All I found in my quick scan was that he does not recommend a shackle reversal with TTB, and that he recommends about a 2" - 3" lift.  That certainly isn't enough info to answer your questions, but it's a start.

Bill - That's the sort of thing I do not want to get into.  With the EFI and everything else I have planned, I don't want to take the time to work on a differential myself.  Saying it another way, I can hire that done, but I probably can't hire the EFI system done.

Bob - I've PM'd the guy on FTE, and will do some searching for all he's posted re TTB's.  Thanks.

Also, you went with an air-powered Ox.  Did they not have the electric shift available then?  If so, why not use it?

As said, I hope to use an F600's radio bezel with room for several switches and readouts above them, so it seems reasonable to go with an electric one.

In looking at the Tuff Country drop pivots needed for a 250 RSK I noticed that the 1997 250's are unique enough that they have their own part number.
Maybe that explains some of the better ride you have?

Gary,
Again I'm going to say that while a 250 RSK might get the axle off the bump stops and put the spring motion in the right direction you're still not eliminating the pivot bushing degradation, troublesome need to pull the front end apart to install different caster/camber bushings, and you still are going to need a drop pitman arm in addition to those TC drop pivots which are around $160.

Yes, scope creep has exponentially increased the cost.
My initial suggestion was to buy a wrecked F-350 4x4 for $5-600 and have ALL the parts for Big Blue except the RSK itself.
Then scrap the 350 hulk and the 250 front end for $350 or whatever the going rate.

I have time but no $ and realize that your dynamic is quite different.
I also realize that maybe you've had enough of dad's truck for now and want to shift gears and work on Big Blue.

You could still buy the $50 cross member and set about wiring up the 460 while looking for a dead 350.
You could still get the SD springs and weld in the RSK and do the LoPro mounts.
In the end you could still use the TTB if you don't find a 3.54 D60 and front driveshaft.

But that's up to you

And this is what happens when I get distracted while in a reply window.  

I still don't see $2k in a D60 and double cardan shaft if you intend to do everything else.

Gary Lewis wrote

Jim - I think I have a tube of the yellow stuff I bought decades ago when I was going to set up a diff on a VW kombi, which didn't happen.

Just a suggestion to look to Travers Tool or Enco if you needed the marking paste, and an alternative.

Jim - The $2k that would be saved by using SuperDuty springs on my TTB's includes $800 for the D60 and $1200 for the Ox locker.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Gary,
Again I'm going to say that while a 250 RSK might get the axle off the bump stops and put the spring motion in the right direction you're still not eliminating the pivot bushing degradation, troublesome need to pull the front end apart to install different caster/camber bushings, and you still are going to need a drop pitman arm in addition to those TC drop pivots which are around $160.

Yes, scope creep has exponentially increased the cost.
My initial suggestion was to buy a wrecked F-350 4x4 for $5-600 and have ALL the parts for Big Blue except the RSK itself.
Then scrap the 350 hulk and the 250 front end for $350 or whatever the going rate.

I have time but no $ and realize that your dynamic is quite different.
I also realize that maybe you've had enough of dad's truck for now and want to shift gears and work on Big Blue.

You could still buy the $50 cross member and set about wiring up the 460 while looking for a dead 350.
You could still get the SD springs and weld in the RSK and do the LoPro mounts.
In the end you could still use the TTB if you don't find a 3.54 D60 and front driveshaft.

But that's up to you

You make a good point.  I could replace the cross member, rebuild the engine, and even install it and wire it up if that won't cause problems with installing a different front axle.  Meanwhile looking for an F350 for the axle, suspension, and for that matter t-case.  (I think I have the right front driveshaft from the F350 that the ZF5 came from.)

I've not made any decisions about the front axle, and really don't need to make any for quite some time as there's plenty of work to be done.  But I'm just trying to work through the options and the costs thereof.

So, perhaps waiting to see what comes from the searches I've kicked off would be the best approach.  Perhaps they'll turn up the F350 and I'll have everything needed.  However, even then I'll need to decide on the RSK, which is $450, and the locker, which is $1200.

Again, thanks for the help thinking through this.

Gary Lewis wrote

However, I'll ask again: Is it not possible to put a set of, say, SD springs on the TTB's I have and gain some decent articulation & ride but save $2k?

Nope, your current springs are 52" long, the SD springs are 56" long.

I didn't mean w/o changing the mounts/shackles.  Instead, what I meant was to replace the current springs with SD springs and add the SD RSK.

I hadn't considered the cost of a front locker, or the fact that Big Blue already has one.  
Maybe I've put it out of my mind because of my personal experience with them?

But that also means you would recoup some of that 2k by selling the D44 forward.
Not much, as it isn't very desirable, but something more than scrap.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  Also, you went with an air-powered Ox.  Did they not have the electric shift available then?  If so, why not use it?

As said, I hope to use an F600's radio bezel with room for several switches and readouts above them, so it seems reasonable to go with an electric one.

For one thing my Bronco already had on-board air, so it's not like I had the extra expense of adding an air compressor as well.  But I understand your intent is to have an air compressor on Big Blue, so you'll be at essentially the same starting point as I was.

So for my thought process...

Why an OX?  I wanted a selectable, so that narrowed my choices.  In fact, I'm only aware of 3:  ARB, OX and Eaton e-locker.  I've heard of quite a few people having trouble with e-lockers not engaging (usually traced back to a bad electrical connection).  And I know of two different types of e-lockers.  Some have sprag clutches which unlock and then relock each time you change direction.  I really wouldn't want that and I didn't feel like educating myself enough to make sure that I wouldn't be getting that style.  So I ruled out the e-locker.

Between the other two, I've heard mostly good things about ARB, and only good things about OX.  Not enough difference there to make a decision on.  What I liked about the OX was that it's purely mechanical, and therefore a little simpler.  Not that the ARB is overly complex, or inherently unreliable.  Just that the OX is simpler (OX is simpler than the e-locker too).  So that relatively short thought process brought me to the OX.

Why air actuated?  OX has 4 actuation means (well, 5 really).  You can control them with: a push-pull cable, an add-on electric actuator in the standard cover, an add-on air actuator in the standard cover, or an air actuator that's built into a special cover.  (The fifth method is a bolt that you screw into the cover.  You can do this in place of any of the 4 methods listed above.  It's not at all convenient, but a great fall-back to have if something happens to disable the primary actuator.  This is another feature I liked about the OX.)

I ruled out the push-pull cable, even though it's the simplest design, because it seemed like it would be harder to mount the lever and route the cable (which can't be kinked).

The electrical actuator and the add-on air actuator both end up with a fairly big, heavy thing cantilevered out of the diff cover.  I figured that was an inherent disadvantage with the possibility of hitting it and breaking it off, or even just what would happen as it vibrated over the course of tens of thousands of miles.  I should emphasize here, that this was an argument in my own mind that "just made sense."  I know a lot of people use that phrase to strengthen their argument.  I use it to point out that the only thing supporting the argument is that it makes sense.  I don't have a shred of evidence to say that either method has any inherent risk.  So take it for what it's worth.

But whatever the validity of that argument, I decided to go with the special cover with the integral air actuator.  It has a piston in a bore, so you just screw an air line fitting in the cover and if you supply pressure it engages and if you remove pressure it disengages.  It does have the inherent risk of the seal going bad and leaking air into the diff housing (which the add-on actuator can't do).  But that's what I went with.

As far as hooking up controls for it, it wasn't much harder to do than if I had gone with the electric actuator.  OX supplied an on/off valve that looks and mounts like a toggle switch, so I just needed to run air to and from it rather than wires.  I already had an air line available on the floor under the dash, so it wasn't hard to tap into that for the supply.  And running the air line to the diff wasn't any harder than running a wire would've been.

Jim - I doubt the Trutrac or the D44HD will fetch much, but I'll be selling it for whatever I can get.  As I will the T19.

Bob - I didn't realize that the electric actuator hung off the side.  Guess I need to do more research.  But I can go with air as there are inexpensive 12v solenoid valves that I could use so I can install a switch in the cab to control the locker.

Assuming the storms aren't too bad in the morning we are headed into Tulsa and I plan to consult with the folks at 4wd Parts.  They sell and install both ARB and Ox, so I'll get their input, prices, etc.

Oops, I have to take some of that back.  Maybe my info wasn't good, or maybe they've changed it.  But now it looks like the electric actuator pushes ad pulls on a cable that you then run to the diff cover.  That looks to be more robust than I remember, but still has the downside of needing to carefully route the cable.  Not a show-stopper, but I'm still happy with my choice.

And yes, you can get a solenoid and control the air-actuated ones with an electric switch.  BUt if you go the air-actuated OX route, look at the valve they provide.  You might find it easiest just to mount that in your switch panel.

Bob - No prob.  I have a ways to go before decided on the actuator.  But your thoughts really help.  Thanks.

I've now done a TON of reading on various forums, and given the good advice I've gotten here as well as what I've read elsewhere am convinced the D60 is the way to go.  Here are some of the MANY posts from elsewhere that helped me make my mind up.

This one explains in terms I can easily understand why what I have cannot work well:

Some guy that thinks he's Nothing Special: The problem with the F-250 TTB is the combination of TTB with leaf springs. As the suspension cycles the beam makes the end of the axle swing in one arc (around the beam pivot, moving the axle end right to left as it moves up and down) and the spring makes it swing in another (around the fixed end of the spring, moving the axle end front to back as it moves up and down). The beam won't let the axle end move front to back and the spring greatly resists right to left, so the suspension binds up.

It is a terrible design, but overall it does work. Some people even like it. Rebuilding and keeping an F-250 TTB isn't the worst thing in the world to do. But most people do think the F-350 solid axle setup, which doesn't bind up, rides better even though it's a 1 ton compared to the TTB 3/4 ton.

This one states what I've observed with Big Blue's TTB:

Diesel Brad:  a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rides so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.

If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs

And then here's Diesel Brad's shopping list:

The axle itself
3 variations will work (all from F350s)
A. 85.5-91 Dana 60. It has king pins and pin on calipers
B. 92-94 Dana 60. It has ball joints and Pin on calipers
C. 95-97 Dana 60. it has vll joints and Bolt on calipers. Also has 1/2" bigger brakes.
There were 2 gear ratio options thru the years. 4,01 and 3.55. So you need to know what you have.

Front driveshaft (SOME have found this is not necessary)
f350s used a Double joint at the t-case end (cardian joint) This was to help with the added angle from the added F250 height (2") and the sorter distance (dana 60 has a longer pinion).
To go with the F350 shaft you also need the F350 yoke from the front of the t-case. There were (2) t-cases offered the 1356 (80s-95) and the 4407(96/97).
You will need the yoke from the 1356. The 1356 and 4407 yoke are NOT interchangeable)

Track bar mount (mounts on engine crossmember using existing holes)

Track bar (goes between axle and mount to keep axle centered)

F350 leaf springs
You want F350 springs and NOT F250 springs because the TTB springs have a MUCH high spring rate due to they have to follow the arch of the TTB and the F350 springs just basically go up and down. There are 2 versions of the F350 spring. Big block/ diesel and Small block

Drivers side U-bolt plate and u-bolts
This is a a cast piece that goes under the axle and partially around the pumpkin to allow the unbolts to go over the springs and clamp them to the axle. this is an OBSOLETE part and no one makes them. You want NEW u-bolts they are stretch to yield an are not designed to be reused.

F350 pitman arm
It is just a TOUCH longer than the F250 but allows the tires to turn all the way. You can retain the F250 one but steering radius will be terrible. This is an OBSOLETE part and last I heard the aftermarket was runny VERY short on supply)

Steering linkage
You need F350 linkage, F250 stuff will NOT WORK

Brake calipers
You need the correct ones of the axle
Follow the year range of the axle(above)
F250s used the same style per year as the f350

For the rear, you will want the F350(4") blocks and new U-bolts
F250s use 2" blocks

So now it is a question of how I acquire the parts - piecemeal or by getting an F350 and disassembling it.  We shall see.

One thing I see Brad doesn't have on his shopping list is dampers/shock absorbers.

I'd think 2-4" of lift would have them topping out constantly.
Depending on the spring chosen stock 250 shocks might be in tension most of the time.

Keep an eye on the brake hoses as well.

Good point, Jim.

And, by the way, I should have said in my post last night that I've gotten really good advice on here.  So I've revised that post to say, among other things:

I've now done a TON of reading on various forums, and given the good advice I've gotten here as well as what I've read elsewhere am convinced the D60 is the way to go.  Here are some of the MANY posts from elsewhere that helped me make my mind up.

Also, I did get a response from '89F2urd.  Here is the salient info:

The ttb is a phenomenal piece when setup properly. It's actually widely used in high speed applications. That said, they are lousy in stock form, no doubt about that. The springs were not very good when they were brand new, and being 30 years old just makes them worse.

I'm sure you're already aware that any worn out components will cause ride quality to suffer, so make sure your pivot and spring bushings are in good working order, or upgrade them.

The remedy to your woes will come by way of a lift kit. You can get one as small as 2.5" (about the amount that a dana 60 will raise your truck) and quality shocks. I always ran 4" lift, which would be better, but 2.5 would still be night and day vs stock springs. I swapped in a dana 60 in my 89 when I started running heavy 37s, but I miss being able to fly over bumps with my ttb.

What I forgot to tell him is that my springs and bushings are new, and the bushings are poly.  So he's saying that a simple lift would solve the problem.  But while that would provide more space between the spring and the bump stop I doubt it would make much difference.  I say that because the spring is apparently stiff enough to only flex very little on a bump, so just because it no longer hits the stop shouldn't make much difference.  And, the lift does nothing to resolve the inherit physics problems of a leaf-sprung TTB, as explained by Bob.

So, I'm still convinced that a D60 is the way to go.  I'll report back on what I find out today.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  

Some guy that thinks he's Nothing Special: .... The beam won't let the axle end move front to back and the spring greatly resists right to left, so the suspension binds up.

One thing I had at least a little wrong back then is that the beam actually does let the axle move front-to-back.  That's why coil spring TTBs still work so well, even with a radius arm.  But a radius arm does allow the axle to move right-to-left, and I'm still confident I'm right about a leaf spring fighting that, so overall I still stand by what I said then.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  

Diesel Brad:  ....  If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs

Keep in mind that's adding 1.5" to a stock F-350, which already rides about 2" higher than a stock F-250.  I think Big Blue might already have a front lift, so I'm not saying you'll be lifting him 3.5".  Just trying to clarify.