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Hydroboost Planning

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85lebaront2

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Glad you found it! No, I have a nice blasted and clear coated C2 bracket, it is sitting on the new engine. I thought I had a picture of the C2 and Saginaw brackets side by side, but I haven't found it yet.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Thanks, Bill.

I got to looking at the hoses coming out of the hydroboost unit and decided I'd check out the 1995 FSM to see what it shows. And in order to make that easier I carved those pages out of the FSM and put them here: Documentation/Driveline/Brakes and then the Master Cyl's & Boosters tab, then the Factory Shop Manual Sections tab, and finally on the Hydroboost tab.

Here's what it says in the Description And Operation section:

The Bendix Hydro-Boost brake booster is a hydraulically operated brake booster powered by the power steering pump (3A674). The power steering pump provides the fluid pressure to operate both the hydraulically powered power brake booster (2005) (hydro-boost)and the power steering gear (3504).

A hydro-boost reserve system (accumulator) stores sufficient fluid under pressure to provide at least two power-assisted brake applications in the event the power steering pump fluid flow is interrupted.

The brakes can also be applied manually if the reserve system is depleted.

Model identification is stamped into the power brake booster housing near the power steering right turn pressure hose (3A717). With the Hydro-Boost at rest (engine (6007) on, brakes released) power steering fluid flows from the inlet port, across the number 3 land and through the outlet port to the steering gear. In this position, steering pressure created by the steering gear and power steering pump is isolated from the boost cavity by the spool valve. Lands 2 and 4 block this steering pressure which prevents activation of the unit.

Any leakage goes directly back to the power steering oil reservoir (3A697)

And here's what it shows for the plumbing of the F-Super Duty Chassis Cab, and you can see the C2 pump with the two returns, one on the neck for the hydroboost and the other on the back bottom of the reservoir:

Here's what it shows for the Commercial application. Note that they use a tee for the returns.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

I think I'd be looking for a barbed brass Y in the big box plumbing section.

At least that way both returns have the same chance and balanced flow.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Jim - That seems to be the easiest approach for the return.

Having said that, I'm confused again. Do you remember which tube you cut? In other words, did you cut it off the steering gear or the power steering pump? (I think it was probably the one to the steering gear?)

I ask because something is not adding up. First, Jonathan says the line from the pump to the booster on the SuperDuty shouldn't fit the Saginaw pump. But this looks to be a perfect fit as the line has a tip that should engage in the o-ring perfectly. And it screws in nicely.

But here's the C2's outlet and it doesn't have that o-ring. Is it the right fitting?

I thought I could clear this up by going to the '95 FSM's diagram shown above, but that confused me even more as it says the connections are to the Power Steering Oil Reservoir, Power Steering Right Turn Pressure Hose, and Power Steering Left Turn Pressure Hose. Huh??

So I looked at another drawing in the FSM and it seems to say the front one is the return, the middle one the supply, and rear one goes to the steering gear. Does that seem to make sense? The middle one is the one with the fitting still on it and it seems to fit the Saginaw pump nicely.

And if that is the case then the line I need is the one from the hydroboost unit to the power steering gear.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

I'm fairly certain that I cut the line off the sector box.
I didn't have a crows foot.

As for the rest.... if the line fits, wear it.
I have not enough experience.
I've only done a couple of swaps (long ago)

I used a van line for the E-350 donor and tweaked the hardline S at the box so it fit life an F-series.

No Hydroboost there.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

If the cut one is off the sector box, which seems to be the case, then I think the line from the pump to the booster may work. It has to be twisted a bit to connect, but I may be able to help that some.

I'll do some more checking tomorrow.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ford F834

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Gary, I’m not remembering all of the gory details but I’m pretty sure that the C2 fitting won’t seal right on the Saginaw and it will leak. When I did mine that end was cut off, and replaced with a universal union and a fuel line fitting that matched the van Saginaw hose end:

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Jonathan - In your first pic is the cutoff end the one off the C2 hose? If so, do you have one that shows the business end of it? Yours looks to be flat or maybe flared on the end similar to the fuel line one in the 2nd pic.

But my fitting has a tip on it that sticks out, and it has a taper that seems to be perfect for the fitting on the Sag pump. Which doesn't make sense as it came from a C2 pump.

You didn't send the hose from the van, right? Do you remember what year? Perhaps I could persuade the local parts store to order one in and then make me a hose like that but with the correct length.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ford F834

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Sorry Gary, I don’t think I do have any other pictures of the C2 end that was cut off... but I don’t remember a tapered cone on it. That is opposite of the flare on the Saginaw line, but I don’t see a flare inside the pump fitting anyway. I don’t think that is where the seal happens. I think it is the shoulder and O-ring on the Saginaw line that holds the pressure. I have no ideas if the cone and O-ring would seat and do the same thing? 🤷‍♂️

Ford F834

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

And to answer your other question... no I did not send the van line since it was not for hydroboost. It was extremely short and went straight to the gearbox. There were no Ford vans with hydroboost that I know of. The vehicle was a ‘95 E350.

1. You could try what you have, but I would wrap it with rags in case it leaks it won’t spray and make a mess.

2. You could have the end changed like I did, parts and labor to crimp on the universal union was a bit over $50. The steel line is cut-to-length which saved me on my long I-6.

3. Order the Chevy line (~$20) and return it and try #2 if it does not fit or work for some reason.

4. There is supposedly a way to adapt the fitting, but my understanding was it wasn’t just a single part, and I was unable to confirm exactly what I needed and adding more joints that could leak didn’t thrill me.

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

My plans for starting up the engine is not to have the PS/AC belt on, so won't have to worry about leaks at that point. But later I'll certainly want to have rags handy.

However, I'll probably just order the Chevy line. That will be far less expensive than having something made.

Thanks.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

I just ordered the pump/hydroboost hose for the Chevy, and ordered the hydroboost/steering gear hose for a '95 SuperDuty w/a 7.5L. Should be in next Wednesday.

Meanwhile I'll get back to the transfer case........

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Well, the hoses from Rock Auto came in today. And the high-pressure return line from the hydroboost unit to the sector box looks like it'll work, although it will take some tweaking of the bends to get it where I want it.

But the Chevy hose, #366630, doesn't fit. The fitting for the hydroboost end is metric, with a 1.5mm pitch and a .700" OD while the one that came off the hydroboost has an 18 tpi pitch and measure .680" OD.

Alfie - Do you have a part number for the fitting you used, the one below? And do you know if it is the correct fitting for the Saginaw pump? Someone that knows ID'd the fitting? Have you fired it up?

I ask because I think I'm going to have to have a hose made as well, so if you've solved the problem maybe I can swap the Chevy hose for the Superduty hose and have that end put on.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ford F834

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Bummer... sorry to give you bad information Gary 😔. So much for an affordable off the shelf solution...

Next best thing will be to get the F-Superduty pump to hydroboost hose and have the end changed. One thing about the way I did it on my I-6 with the universal union and cut-to-fit steel line is you can make up the length that you loose when the hydroboost C2 end is cut. I am curious if this is what Alfie did also, or something different. The hose shop told me they could use the hydroboost end hard line from my original line, and build the rest (hose + Saginaw end) and the hose could be any length, but it would have almost doubled the price.

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Jonathan - No problem. It was worth a try.

I think I'll order the Superduty hose and then figure out what connector is needed for the pump and have it put on. I'd like to get someone that knows fittings to eyeball the one on the pump and say "Oh, that's an XYZ fitting." That way those that come after us will know what to get.

Perhaps Alfie knows?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Gary,
In your. 2/11. 4:04 reply it looks almost like the C2 pump has an inverted flare fitting (no O-ring), where the Sag has a swivel connection.

I recall that when I was installing the pump I got from Bill's friend Donnie Medllin(?) I had removed the output fitting from the pump(s) to see if I could swap them, to no avail.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

I don't know enough about hydraulic fittings to know what to call any of them. But the C-II appears to be flat.

The Saginaw pump has an o-ring in it that apparently takes a tapered tip on the end of the fitting. And I think the two in this pic would work. But I want someone that knows about those kinds of things to confirm that before I try.

But you've nixed what I was thinking about. I have the Sag I rebuilt for Dad's truck and wondered if it might have a different fitting. I think I'll still look, but you are saying the fittings don't interchange? So I'd have to use the whole pump?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Gary,
I'm saying the C-II and Saginaw fittings don't interchange.

I know nothing about Saginaw to Saginaw, but there were a HUGE array of those pumps built for all three of the major U.S. automakers of the time.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

Oh! I misunderstood.

Ok, I'll check out the one I built for Dad's truck. Perhaps it has a different fitting on it.

But do you agree with me that it looks like the fittings in that pic should work together? Should I take more/better pics to help show them?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Hydroboost Planning

Administrator

I see an O-ring in one fitting and none in the other.
Even if the thread and depth were the same, having no seal, or two seals against one another, is not going to work.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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