The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

That's exactly what I found.  I think your build will be essentially the same as mine.

Now about your documentation.  I like it.  But there have been others that have done similar ones, myself included.  So, when we get this done and dusted I need to update the Hydroboost Upgrade tab here: Documentation/Driveline/Brakes and then the Master Cyl's & Boosters tab.

I'm thinking we need to distill our learnings into some words on that tab, and then provide links to our builds.  Thoughts?

Gary,

I am absolutely happy to help with what I can (similar to the saginaw work I did).  I am no pioneer on these projects.  I am actually a little self-serving with the documenting of projects, more of a personal record and keeps me working at it.  If it just happens to be useful to other people I am happy to have helped.  I have a few other projects to do, but this hydroboost/c6 to T19 conversion got bumped to the top.  So long as people find these posts interesting/useful I will try to keep posting while I am busy on the project.  I am not able to spend a lot of time on forums typically, but I will try to get this project and maybe a bit more done before I go back to the normal work.

You guys are amazing!

There's more factual details here than I can imagine.

Great work!

This is allegedly the power steering (Saginaw) to brake booster (hydroboost) pressure line.  I bought this quite a while ago now (just after completing the Saginaw swap) for this brake swap.  I will verify if it actually fits once parts start going together.  It is much easier to avoid loosing o rings if I do not open the package yet.

I also got my hands on the original hydroboost lines.  The line from the pump got damaged, but was of no concern for me since it would not work anyway.  I need to take the lines in and try to order a new oring for the pressure line from the hydroboost to the steering box.  I suppose I will have a used saginaw power steering hose available soon if anyone should want it.



Now hopefully I can remember where I put the filter housing I want to use for the power steering.

Scratch the hose off the list I think.

The research on rock auto shows 2 different clutch master cylinders for the 2 years.  I decided to look closer at the 1991 and the firewall in the 86 f350.  The mounting of the clutch masters are slightly different.  I went ahead and ordered a new clutch master as well.  May as do the project right as needed.

IDIBronco wrote

On a side note, while working on this I saw the pedal was stamped with a part number and said power on it.  This got me thinking and I am sure there is an expert out there that can determine this.  Was there a manual brake system available on the bullnose trucks/Broncos?  If so did it use a pedal with a pin located in a different position?  It would seem to me a manual brake system could use a pedal with a pin located more like the hydroboost system uses.  I would be curious to see a manual brake pedal if there was one available to see the distance the pin is located away from the pivot.

I can answer that with a BIG YES the pins are in different locations between power & non-power pedals.


I want to say the higher pin is the non-power pedal

Dave ----

FuzzFace2 wrote

I am glad you posted this.  Very interesting information in the picture.  I was thinking the manual pedal would be an option, but it appears to be mounted 3/4 of an inch higher than the hydroboost pedals, which is 3/4 of an inch higher than the power pedal.

In other news, the weather outlook is talking quite a bit of rain so I suspect progress will slow for the next several days as I have the bronco out back in the grass for working on at the moment.

Well I worked on other projects a while this morning (hot tub repairs, essential if I am working on the bronco for evening recovery...), I did manage to figure out what I think is a simple solution for hooking up the brake lines to the hydroboost.

The first thing to note (as Gary mentioned) is the reversal of ports on the brake boosters.  The stock cast unit that the bronco had has the rear brakes on the front of the booster, and the hydroboost has the rear brakes at the rear of the booster.

So.

Original


You have to reverse the brake lines on the booster compared to how they originally where located.  Additionally, the fitting for the FRONT brake like (originally closest to the firewall) has the wrong end.  



This shows the correct fitting for the front brake port on the hydroboost master.  The plan is to just remove the end on the brake like and swap this fitting on, and redo the double flare.

Simple enough.



Remove the original double flare on the brake line closest to the firewall (FRONT brake line)



Next remove the original nut from the brake line.  It will just slide off the end now.



Since I got the fitting I was going to install from a used brake line I had to do the same steps to get that fitting free, but you could just run to the auto store and buy a new fitting.



You can slide the new nut (remember to be sure to have it pointed the same direction as the one you removed).  



Now we begin the process of putting the double flare end on the brake line.

You need a simple line flaring kit with the double flare inserts.  This is the kit I picked up a few years ago.  



The first step in doing a double flare is to make sure you ream the inside of where you just cut the brake line off.



Next we can clamp the double flare tool on and set the line up.



The brake line should Stick past the end of the flare clamp the thickness of the double flaring insert.  Clamp the tool down around the brake line.

Then place the insert into the brake line and press the insert down until it stops against the clamp.





Now remove the insert from the brake line and you can see how the line has bulged out.





Now, just press the bulged section again without the insert this time and you have a finished double flare.







I even threaded it into the f250 master I have loose from my parts truck to be sure I liked the fit.



I will have to finess the brake line positioning once I go to install the lines into the new master, but this method would allow someone to not have to mess with the lines down on the valve on the frame at all.

Last night I had resolved to trying this without changing anything else.  If I do not like the brakes when it is back together I can always pull the pedal out and adjust the pin distance to the pivot to make the pedal travel more or less.  If I am unhappy with the stock brake bias front to rear I will install an adjustable brake proportioning valve.  However, this was quick, cheap, didn't require any new parts or waiting on parts, and was simple.  The hardest part will probably getting the brake line bends adjusted to my liking when it is all installed.

Due to still waiting for the firewall reinforcement to arrive I cannot start actually putting this stuff together for good.  So I threw the hydroboost/master in temporarily to check the brake lines...





While not quite perfect, I think I will be able to work them into a position where the lines do not touch each other, or anything else.  As a bonus I think the stock brake line clamp may even work...

Yay! Progress

You're certainly working hard, and it shows.  

Yes, it is good progress.  But I'm confused on why you didn't use the lines off the donor truck instead of changing the fitting?  They should have just gone right on with no changes needed at all.

Turns out it was an especially easy decision.  The line for the front brakes on the part truck ran to a tee connector at the drivers front brake hose???  I am not exactly sure what the repair person on that job was doing.  The rear line was pretty rusted and simply twisted off on attempted removal.  I thought on the solution last night before bed and decided this is what I would try.  No need to unhook the lines at the frame on the bronco this way.  Redo the end of one line and tweak the shape of stock bronco lines.  If it didn't work all I would loose is a little bit of my time and I would be ordering brake lines at that point (which I would have had to do anyway).   That's simply the logic.

Well, that certainly explains why you used the Bullnose lines.  But it doesn't explain what someone was smoking when they teed into the hose.  

Anyway, glad it worked out for you.

Gary Lewis wrote

Well, that certainly explains why you used the Bullnose lines.  But it doesn't explain what someone was smoking when they teed into the hose.  

Anyway, glad it worked out for you.

Haha.

To be completely honest I was speechless when I found this arrangement.  I have never seen someone do something like this before.

Really nice progress Andrew! Also, I am glad you posted this. Many years elapsed between when I removed the hydroboost equipment and my reinstallation into my F150. I did not pay much attention to the original lines... I just hooked them up the way they came off of the F150 booster (rear master cylinder port connected to the front port on the pressure differential valve, front master cylinder port to the rear of the pressure differential valve). I compared this to the lines in the ‘95 F-Superduty and it appears I have them backwards. The big F does not have a pressure differential valve, but the front master cylinder port has a hard line that goes directly to the front brakes, and the rear master cylinder port goes to a junction block of sorts on the inner frame rail (rear brakes).

So this might explain the tendency for my rear brakes to lock up on the ‘81 F150... although in general I don’t have any complaints on performance. I looked at my ‘89 parts truck and the master cylinder lines are ordered like the bullnose ones (rear master cylinder port goes to the front brakes), and since it does not use a pressure differential valve either, I’m not sure if those hardlines would be of much help (to connect an F-Superduty master cylinder in a Bullnose).

Also, keep you flare tool handy. I had told Gary to get the Chevy Saginaw to hydroboost pressure hose but turns out the fitting is wrong for the Ford Hydroboost body. If that is the new line you bought I’m guessing you will need to change the fitting... sorry... I jumped the gun with my speculation that it might fit.

Yes Jonathan, the master cylinder ports swapped positions with the change to a plastic reservoir and an aluminum body.

Ford F834 wrote

Also, keep you flare tool handy. I had told Gary to get the Chevy Saginaw to hydroboost pressure hose but turns out the fitting is wrong for the Ford Hydroboost body. If that is the new line you bought I’m guessing you will need to change the fitting... sorry... I jumped the gun with my speculation that it might fit.

Interesting.  Sounds like that is the first order of business this morning.  If it is just moving the nut and adding a flare onto the new line I can live with that.  I saved the hydroboost end of the pressure line from the F-Superduty when I got the parts.  The pump end was damaged, but I didn't think I needed the line anyway.  If that is the case I am glad I held onto the line as I would be able to reuse the flarenut.

I can see swapping parts around how the front and rear brakes could get hooked up backwards.  I wonder if you will have better brake performance with the lines swapped to the proper ports.

Not sure it is visible in the picture, but there is a slight difference in the threads between the new Delco (GM) hydroboost hose and the factory ford.  They are very close to the "same" when held against one another to check the pitch of the threads.  So I took a walk over to the shop for a bit more accurate readings.



That is the O.D. of the ford thread.



O.D. of the Delco thread.

So the Delco is .020 larger, not the end of the world considering the threads in the hydroboost feel a bit oversized.  So I said to myself...  "This might work".

Now to check the threads.



The ford is definitly a 18tpi thread.  I also quickly learned trying to capture the measurement was exceedingly difficult.



The Delco end has "almost" 18tpi.  I do not have a metric thread gauge set, but I imagine it is a very close metric thread.  It is hard to see, but the very last thread is just really starting to work out of the base of the thread.  

Definitely not good.

At that point I walked back out of the shop to head to the bronco to work, and the nice sunny sky was still there, but the dark clouds in the distance where a lot closer than I had anticipated.  I misjudged how much time I had before rain started.  So it quickly turned into a mad dash to get the tools back safely inside of the bronco, the window up, and any random parts back under cover.  I lost the race and ended up soaked.  The rain lasted about 30 seconds longer than it took me to get in the house.  It stopped raining just long enough for me to get motivated enough to start heading back outside and then the real rain started.

So now it is back to researching what I need to get ordered yet.

You might be interested in this comment in the Hydroboost Planning thread: "But the Chevy hose, #366630, doesn't fit.  The fitting for the hydroboost end is metric, with a 1.5mm pitch and a .700" OD while the one that came off the hydroboost has an 18 tpi pitch and measure .680" OD."

Yep, I think I have had this hose since about a week after I had done the Saginaw swap.  I hadn't seen that it hadn't worked for you.  Jonathan recommended this to me at about the time of the Saginaw swap when we emailing back and forth.  It has been laying in the shop for quite a while.  I am trying to decide what I want to do now.  At this point I am considering turning a thread out of some good steel on the lathe to turn onto the Delco hose end to make the thread what I need.  It is so close to correct it doesn't need to be that robust to cut the threads.  Like a made to order thread die.  I have to look if any of my "adjustable" dies have 18tpi jaws, that may be the ticket... Back to the shop.  If it weren't a hour round trip to run to a place to have something made i would consider it, but I think I can make this work yet.