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The Return of Rusty

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salans7

Re: The Return of Rusty

I once yanked a 400 and a C6 automatic out of an 87 Bronco in the junkyard, and there was no flexplate spacer to be found. So if that cobbled together truck didn't need one, there's no way Rusty needs one. Something funky is going on for sure.

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

In reply to this post by ClayJ

I'm relieved that the locating pins and plate are there, although I'd have been willing to bet they were.

But I don't think that document is a Ford doc. It says "Ford", but I think it is just a page from some mechanic's book called Altra. And it doesn't look like any Ford doc I've seen - and I have 100's of them.

Speaking of those, I have all of the technical service bulletins from 1980 well into the 90's. But few of them are on the site - yet. You might look through the spreadsheet that I put together from a Ford doc that supposedly showed all of the TSB's. However, since then I've learned that there are a lot more TSB's than are on the spreadsheet. Anyway, you might look and see if you spot one that might be of interest and I can scan it in. Documentation/TSB's/TSB Index.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

In reply to this post by salans7

salans7 wrote

I once yanked a 400 and a C6 automatic out of an 87 Bronco in the junkyard, and there was no flexplate spacer to be found. So if that cobbled together truck didn't need one, there's no way Rusty needs one. Something funky is going on for sure.

I agree, Shaun. The factory shop manual doesn't show one, nor does the master parts catalog. And there wasn't one on Dad's truck when I pulled it apart.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ClayJ

Re: The Return of Rusty

In reply to this post by ClayJ

So I've been waiting all week on pins and needles to get an update on Rusty and exactly what the failure was that left me on the side of I20. Talked with the mechanic briefly Tuesday and was told he'd be able to get Rusty on the lift Wednesday morning. Since then no update other than a snippet from my FiL that the flexplate was definitely part of the failure, and that the mechanic was unsure he used the correct part. So there may have been confusion when ordering parts leading to either a Windsor or Cleveland flexplate being installed. This does not give me much confidence if true. 😫🤬Here's my question, would it be possible to install and then drive with the incorrect flexplate installed?

Rusty 1981 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4 400 w/ RV cam, Edelbrock 1906 4bbl w/400 performer intake, C6 xmsn, NP 208 TC, 9" rear diff 3.50 gears, Proform HEI Distributor, Powermaster 1-wire alternator upgrade (75 Amp), Rough Country 2.5" Suspension Lift.

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

I think you've just figured out what the problem was. He used a Windsor flywheel and needed to space it back to fit the starter. I don't know that's the case, but it makes sense.

As far as the question, I don't know. I don't think I have a Windsor flywheel to compare to an M flywheel. So I can't say. But our page on Documentation/Engines/Flywheels says a 351M or 400 with an auto takes a D1AZ 6375-A. And the D1 means it came out in 1971, and the A means it came out on a full-sized Ford car.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ClayJ

Re: The Return of Rusty

I'm hoping nothing else was damaged when the flexplate broke, that way they can install the correct one and I can get him home. Talk about knock the wind out of your sails.

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

Have them check the starter’s gear closely. Make SURE the teeth aren’t damaged or they’ll tear up a new flywheel.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Angelo Voltura

Re: The Return of Rusty

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

I think you've just figured out what the problem was. He used a Windsor flywheel and needed to space it back to fit the starter. I don't know that's the case, but it makes sense.

As far as the question, I don't know. I don't think I have a Windsor flywheel to compare to an M flywheel. So I can't say. But our page on Documentation/Engines/Flywheels says a 351M or 400 with an auto takes a D1AZ 6375-A. And the D1 means it came out in 1971, and the A means it came out on a full-sized Ford car.

Windsor flywheels and 400 flywheels are a direct interchange. Both are 164 tooth, 28oz imbalance, same bolt pattern, and both 14.24" diameter. Moreover they use the same P/N.

On the topic of spacer plates, they are different thicknesses for manual and automatic transmissions which is why the nose cone on the starters are different. I believe that is why Ford motors do not need starter shims like Chevy's.

You can run an engine/starter without a spacer plate, but the gears will never quite mesh as well as if it had one. This is especially true if you use a manual trans starter on an automatic without a spacer plate.

We ran a series of tests on this after work one night basically checking it like backlash on a ring and pinion. Most of the time it'll work, but you'll have problems sooner if the teeth are in the least bit worn out. I always recommend the spacer plate.

1978 F150 351W
1979 F150 "410M"
1979 F100 302
1979 F250 400
1987 F150 300
1990 F150 302
1991 F150 300
1995 F150 (1985 clip swapped) 300
1997 F250 351W

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

Angelo Voltura wrote

Windsor flywheels and 400 flywheels are a direct interchange. Both are 164 tooth, 28oz imbalance, same bolt pattern, and both 14.24" diamter.

I don't agree, Angelo. They are different part numbers, so they have to be different in some way. I can't tell you what the differences are, but they are surely different as Ford wouldn't issue different part numbers for the same part.

So if they are the same diameter, tooth count, and imbalance, perhaps there's a different offset to them? Meaning that one is flat and another is dished? If so, that would mean the flexplate is always bent when attached to the wrong torque converter, which would cause it to crack.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Angelo Voltura

Re: The Return of Rusty

I'm willing to bet the other part number is for the 50oz wheel, but I could be wrong.

1978 F150 351W
1979 F150 "410M"
1979 F100 302
1979 F250 400
1987 F150 300
1990 F150 302
1991 F150 300
1995 F150 (1985 clip swapped) 300
1997 F250 351W

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

Not sure what other part number you mean, but the M-block takes a different flywheel than the W-block according to the MPC. Yes, there are two different W-block flywheels for automatics, and maybe that's what you mean - a 28 and a 50 oz imbalance for the W. But neither of those is correct for an M.

I'm betting they put a W-block flywheel on an M-block. And if they are lucky they didn't mess up either the starter nor the torque converter. But I'd want some kind of guarantee in writing that for the next X,000 miles they'll replace either of those parts of it fails.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Angelo Voltura

Re: The Return of Rusty

That is very interesting...keep me in the loop.

1978 F150 351W
1979 F150 "410M"
1979 F100 302
1979 F250 400
1987 F150 300
1990 F150 302
1991 F150 300
1995 F150 (1985 clip swapped) 300
1997 F250 351W

ArdWrknTrk

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

In reply to this post by Angelo Voltura

Angelo, 351w and m were 28oz throughout.
302 HO and post '81(i think) were 50oz.
My '85 notch taught me this.

Gary's chart is only showing 351W and 351m which both have a 164 tooth count in trucks.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ClayJ

Re: The Return of Rusty

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Since the mechanic doing the work is a contractor for my FiL, they're covering the repairs being made to Rusty. So thank the Lord I'm only out the tow fee which was much more than I would've thought. Gary, you mentioned the possibility this could've damaged the torque converter. Would there be a visual indication of the damage or would it be internal?

ClayJ

Re: The Return of Rusty

On a brief positive note, Ford Era is still honoring the coupon code of FE10OFF for a 10% discount. Just picked up a shirt and hoodie. https://fordera.com/

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

It is good that they are covering the damages.

And in thinking about it more I doubt the torque converter has been hurt. They are very solid things and just tightening down a flex plate to the front of it would probably not hurt it, even if the flex plate wasn't the right one.

As for the hoodie, did you get this one? That's cool! Or, maybe warm?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

salans7

Re: The Return of Rusty

In reply to this post by ClayJ

I need to pick up a shirt or two from them. I have one of their 80-81 grille stickers on the back of my Ranger, and another waiting to go on my F350.

ClayJ

Re: The Return of Rusty

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Here's the hoodie and tshirt I grabbed.

Gary Lewis

Re: The Return of Rusty

Administrator

Ahhh! I didn't see that one. Yes, that's what you need. But I need both as I have an '81 and an '85.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ClayJ

Re: The Return of Rusty

In reply to this post by ClayJ

Thinking about building a wish list of upgrades and improvements to make to Rusty once I finally get him home from the great flexplate dilemma of 2020. I want to keep the awesome look of the truck, just make functional upgrades really. Such as LED headlights, as well as all other bulbs to led. Would I need to upgrade the 1G alternator to the 3G? Any upgrade suggestions are welcome. Thanks

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