T2K-CAR

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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
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Yes, after inter coursing with it for several hours, I finally had enough, took a 1/4" NPT tap to it and installed a 1/4" NPT Allen socket pipe plug. After that I replace the right front lower control arm as the inspector said it was just barely ok last September.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

Machspeed
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In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
FWD Performance.........small world, Bill. That is my sister-in-law, Cindy Lindsay. Her husband, my brother, is James Lindsay. I think you'll find that you are in good hands with them.      
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - John/Machspeed was telling me just yesterday about what he's doing to his Escort, and he's taking his lead from his brother and SiL.  Then he mentioned their company - FWD Something.  So when you posted this morning I thought "It has to be" and texted John.  Sure enough, small world.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

Machspeed
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Focus, Gary…..Focus…..lol!
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yes, I need to focus.  No, Focus!  Ok, I got it, I got it, ....  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
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In reply to this post by Machspeed
I have dealt with FWD performance before. I have never actually met Cindy but when Karen, my first wife, passed away Dec 30 2005, I mentioned it in a thread either on Turbododge.com or Turbo-Mopar.com. She sent me a very nice sympathy note in an email to me.

The rods I ordered from her through FB messenger arrived yesterday bushed for the 0.927" Venolia pin, ARP bolts installed and ready to go into the short block.

Meanwhile, I did a trial fit using the Stratus head to test a theory. One on the major issues in these hybrids as they are called, is oil flow and the returns to the sump. On the original 8 valve head, the ports are all on the back side (what would be the right side in a RWD vehicle) like a 300. Since these engines are OHC there are no push rod holes, but on the front side there are 3 large and one small oil returns, supply is the left front head bolt hole.

The 2.4L DOHC head has it's oil returns as 1 strange one in the front (intake) side and 3 directly behind the 3 center rear headbolts, supply is left rear head bolt hole (more on that later). With the head placed on the block, the 3 rear oil returns are outside the rear of the block, just barely, inner edge is at or just in from the surface of the block as seen here:


My thoughts (I wish I had a Bridgeport) is to use my angle grinder to smooth the small bulges on the back side of the block at the head bolt locations and make a drain channel from square steel tubing. Using small bolts and some good high temperature and strength epoxy, attach it to the block, flush with the deck and then run a drain line into the crankcase. This will make the oil return a permanent metal part and do away with the snake nest of hoses that most of these conversions have for oil returns.

Oil supply, plan is to drill an angled hole from the upper portion of the left front head bolt location in the block (which is one of the DOHC dowel pin locations) to the existing oil passage for the SOHC head and plug the top of that passage as it is outside the head gasket area. In the head, there is a cross passage from the left rear head bolt hole almost all the way to the left front head bolt hole. This feeds all the head supply to the lash adjusters and cam bearings. I will remove the plug on the back side of the head and extend that passage to the left front head bolt hole thus providing a route for the oil supply from the block.

The existing front of the block oil drains will be plugged and the center one will probably be where I will connect the PCV valve so it will be pulling air from the crankcase and creating a down flow in the oil returns.

The distributor on these is on the front of the block centered between # 2 & 3 cylinders. This puts it barely clearing the bottom front of the head and under the intake manifold. This is not a fun place to get to. There is a company that sells a distributor relocation kit the puts it on the end of the intake cam, like a number on Japanese engines. he also sells a set of terminals as the original Chrysler system uses a flat tab on the plug wires that becomes the internal portion of the cap (and you thought GM was cheap). His terminals snap into the cap like the OEM wires, but have posts instead of wires so any nice 8mm wire kit can be used.

The distributor relocation requires some distributor changes as it reverses the rotation. The shutter vanes have to be relocated so the leading edge of the vanes coincide with the rotor being at one of the 4 towers. There is one vane with a hole in it that is unique to the turbocharged engines and they also use two Hall Effect Pickups, a reference and a sync, the latter is on the turbo models as they were the only multipoint EFI systems at that time. These have to be rewired in the harness as the trigger sequence is what times the injectors. The system has to see the window's double pulse first in the reference signal and then in the sync signal and since the HEPS are not 180° apart, close but not exact, the pulse timing tell the computer where #1 is from that. Similar to the narrow vane in the Ford TFI distributors being the #1 cylinder ID.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I've got it, I've got it..... I ain't got it.

The oil supply and return plan makes sense, I think, although I'm not 100% sure and a drawing would help might limited understanding.

But the distributor plan leaves me confused.  First, I assume there's a housing that bolts onto the cam drive to run the dizzy?  And on the rewiring are you just swapping the two signals?  And how do you relocate the shutter vanes?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
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Ok, here are some pictures. First the approximate angle the engine sits at installed.


Second, back side of the engine, I didn't have a bare one so the integrated turbo exhaust was on the head.


Hopefully the diagram will explain it.

On the distributor, there is an adapter housing that bolts where the cam position sensor would go. The changes are first, the vane with the hole is the master and the reference HEP is what is used for ignition timing and will be on a TBI system or turbo. The SYNC HEP is the one used to synchronize the injectors to the valve timing and as such is roughly 180° opposite the reference HEP so that the injector pulse occurs on the intake stroke. The labels on the HEPs are as they are originally configured for counterclockwise as they are on the bottom side of the plastic housing. Assume the rotor is in line with the #1 cap tower, the Reference HEP has a solid vane just entering it, the SYNC HEP has the window in the vane just about to enter it as the first portion of the vane has passed through. When the direction of rotation is reversed, the vane position has toe be changed so that when the rotor is lined up with #1 tower, the above scenario but in a clockwise direction since the angular travel from Reference to SYNC is not 180° the functions of the two HEPS have to be swapped and the Reference HEP has to be placed between the rotor positions for Cyl #4 and Cyl #2. As built, the distributor has a straight portion that is used to attach a splash shield and the cap has a vent on that side. Looking down at the distributor #1 tower is at 10:30, #3 at 1:30, #4 at 4:30 and #2 at 7:30. When reconfigured, with the HEPs connected reversed but mounted normally, #1 is now at 4:30, #3 at 1:30, #4 at 10:30 and #2 at 7:30. With the HEP board rotated 180°, #1 is now back at 10:30, but #3 is now at 7:30, #4 is at 4:30 again, and #2 is at 1:30.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
The drawings did help and I think I understand that.

As for the distributor, I think I understand.  But do you have to move the HEP's or can you just rewire them?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
Administrator
Rewire them. Since the engine harness is plugged together near the left side mount bracket, it will pretty much be a build it and plug it in. It becomes a matter of switching where the signal goes to the computer, Reference is circuit K24, SYNC is K44 they go to pins 24 and 44 respectively at the SBEC 60 pin plug, but before that they go through a 10 pin (4 large, 6 small) connector from engine harness to front end harness and another 3 in a 6 pin connector. It would be a matter of making a new harness for those and also having to make one for the throttle body as it's seven wires come right out of the front end harness just behind the TB and it will end up closer to the radiator.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

FuzzFace2
At the cars & coffee I was at this morning had 2 K cars both rag tops and 1 of them is a new member in the car club I am a member and it is a turbo car.
I should have gotten a picture of the car, I am sure I can at another time / outing.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary, in reply to your offer on 5 July, there is something if you have time or maybe McMaster-Carr or similar might have something.

The 2.5L crank snout is a press fit in a 26mm hole and the bore in the 2.4L crank sprocket is 30mm or close thereto. I may also have to space it out just a bit as the 2.4L belt sits further out than the 2.5L. I do have some extra space as the 2.4L sprocket is only 32.69mm deep and the 2.5L original sprocket is 48.54mm deep. Crank snout is 25.18mm so it may be interesting. It obviously needs a key to keep it from slipping on the shaft. Sprockets appear to be powdered metal rather than machined, but are magnetic. There may also be a need for an adapter for the crank pulley as the 2.4L sprocket has 3 bolts for a damper and the 2.5L uses 5 for the pulley. That will have to wait on fitting up of accessories (PS, WP, Alt and AC). The 2.4L engines use a serpentine belt with the timing belt running the water pump so I may see if something like that will work.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - I read this late last night and thought I'd wait to reply until this morning as then maybe I could get my head around it.  I'm now almost done with my first cup of Joe and it is starting to make sense.  But let me see if I have it right.  There are two things that need to be made - a sprocket adapter and a pulley adapter - right?

Here's what I think I understand about the sprocket adapter.

Adapter Diameter: The crank's snout is ~26mm and the sprocket is ~30mm, so you'll need an adapter sleeve that is ~26mm ID and ~30mm OD.
 
Keyway: But it needs to be keyed to the crank and to the sprocket - right?  And don't these keys need to be in the same spot to properly phase the sprocket?  And won't the keyways go completely through the adapter?  Could we stagger the keyways?  Yes, it would cause the dots on the sprockets to be off, but...

Adapter Length: You said you may have to space it out a bit and gave some dimensions, and from what you said it seems like the 2.5L sprocket is intended to seat fully on the crank snout.  But the 2.4L sprocket is bored ~16mm less (48mm-32mm) so if the edges of the gear teeth are the same distance from the rear of the sprocket then it is automatically spaced out 16mm.  Right?

And we don't need to worry about the pulley adapter right now as that will have to wait until fitting up.  Right?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
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Keys do not need to be in the same place, the timing marks will not ever match unless they are made to. The only thing, the existing key way in the 2.4L sprocket is in-line with a "valley" between two teeth and is 5.26mm deep X 4.0mm wide. I can measure the existing key in the crank.

Key is on the top of the crank in-line with the vertical center on the cylinder block at TDC #1 and 4. Timing marks are on the flywheel or torque converter depending on transaxle used so that doesn't need to be considered.

I can send the 2.4L and 2.5L sprockets to you if that will help and I will see if I can measure the CL distance of the cam sprockets and idler from the block face as it is a machined surface and the face of the face of the front seal portion of the crank where the original sprocket bottoms.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
What kind of timeframe are you looking at?  I ask because I won't be able to get to it until after the trip to New Mexico in October because we have the show and then a cruise 'twixt now and then.

And I'm not sure I need the sprockets, although it might help.  But good pictures and measurements would probably do it.  I'll want to draw the crank and both sprockets up in CAD and we could bat that back and forth to make sure we agree, and we could be doing some of that now to be ready for time in the shop.

In thinking through how to make the adaptor for the sprocket it seems fairly straight forward - until I get to the keyway for the crank.  The keyway on the OD I can do with an end mill, but I haven't figured out how to do the one on the ID.  Any ideas?  Is that something that you could have broached?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
Administrator
Ok, I will get you pictures and measurements, time isn't a huge issue as I will still have to (a) rebuild the head, (b) rebuild the short block and (c) make the block and head modifications for oil feed and return.

The other option is modifying the 2.5L crank sprocket which appears to be powdered metal by extending the teeth all the way to the front side (or close) so that I can use my FWD Performance adjustable cam sprockets which are 40 tooth to match the 2.5L 20 tooth crank sprocket.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Got your note with the s/s and pics.  I'll try to get my head around them tomorrow.  But you mentioned 2.5L, 2.5L Turbo, and 2.4L.  You are using the 2.4L sprocket on a 2.5L crank.  Right?  If so, what does the 2.5L Turbo sprocket have to do with it?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

85lebaront2
Administrator
Should have been 2.2L, 2.5L Turbo and 2.4L. 2.5L turbo is for reference as it is what goes over the 2.5L crank snout. It is also referred to as a common block as 1989 up the 2.2 and 2.5L shared a block, prior to that they were different, 2.2L from 1981-1984/5 used 10mm head bolts 1985-88 11mm and all had a provision for a mechanical fuel pump. 1986-88 2.5L are called "tall block" as they are like the RB V8s, taller deck height. 1989-end of production there is one block design, just machined for different applications.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I've looked at the pics and am a bit confused as to how the pulley/damper attaches, but lets hold that for a bit.

My first thought was to turn a 2.5L sprocket down to be the shim as it has the keyway already in it.  But the 2.5L sprocket has a keyway that is 4.13mm deep and our shim is only going to be 1.95mm thick.  So the 2.5L sprocket would probably fall apart as it was being turned down.  Or at least would expand when the cut finally got to the keyway.

So what about boring a 2.4L sprocket out to something more than the 2.5L's keyway depth, and then turning a 2.5L sprocket down and pressing that into the 2.4L sprocket with Locktite Red on it?

The 2.4L's ID plus keyway depth is 34.81mm so we'd want to bore to something like 35.00mm to take the whole of that narrow keyway out.  But that would mean the thickness of the shim above the keyway would only be 2.435 mm, so maybe we'd need to take the 2.4L sprocket out to more like 40mm?

What do you think of that approach?  If it looks like it'll work can you see what kind of room we have on the 2.4L sprocket to bore it out?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: T2K-CAR

Gary Lewis
Administrator
On second thought, or as my 2nd cup of Joe kicks in, there isn't enough meat in the 2.4L sprocket to bore it far enough to take all of the keyway out.  And I doubt the 2.5L sprocket would survive if turned down to fit inside.  In fact, I don't see how to hold the 2.5L sprocket to turn it down that far as it would spring open and come off the mandrel.  So ditch that plan.

I'm thinking now that it might work to make a shim that would press fit into the 2.4L sprocket and be held in with Locktite Red.  Then put the sprocket in the mill and take out the portion of the shim that is at the keyway.

That leaves you with a keyway that is 3.98mm/.157" wide when the keyway on the crank is 4.07mm/.160" wide.  It would then be needle-file time.

And, the keyway will be too deep and will have to either be filled with epoxy or a special key used.

But it also means your keyway is wherever it is on the 2.4L sprocket.  Can you live with that?


Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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