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85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

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Thank you sir! I stopped by the Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram dealer in Salisbury and ordered a 6100997 dowel pin that is used in the end of the cams to align the gears to them, $4.00. I picked it up in April when I went back up. I drilled through the spacer washer and a short distance into the slot on the 2.5L gear then drove the pin in so it locks the two gears in alignment.

In disassembling the short block, I found some interesting things, on the rear pan rail there is a letter stamped in line with the connecting rod big end, this one had D,C,C,C front to rear and after a preliminary cleaning of the pistons found the same letters there. I posed the question of their meaning to Dave Zatz on AllPar, and he asked some older Chrysler workers. They are what I suspected, piston and bore size grades for a closer fit. He took my pictures and in a section called MoTales, he did a write up on it. https://www.motales.com/engines/misc/piston-matching.php

Now I am trying to decipher the exact size (they are oversize) the Venolia forged 2.5L Hybrid pistons are so I can order rings for them and have the block bored. They are at least 0.50 mm over and may even be 0.75 mm over. Problem is Venolia is out of business and information is very hard to find.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Really interesting, Bill! Hope you can find the pistons you need.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ArdWrknTrk

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

I think Bill has the pistons and just needs to know how to bore the block and which rings to use.

Closer every day!
Progress is GOOD!

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Yes! I misunderstood. He does have the pistons and is just trying to find out what size they are.

And yes, progress is good!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

I'm sure Bill can mic the pistons but he can't know the alloy or how much they will expand at operating temperature.
Venolia would have produced these for a specific bore (within a couple of tenths)

Pistons aren't actually round because of the pin boss, and they tend to be barrel shaped when cold because the face gets hotter and the skirt expands more.
Turbo pistons are also likely forged which further complicates how much they expand.

Hopefully someone on one of the Mopar forums still has the information he needs.
Once he knows that bore and measures the ring lands he can set about finding rings that will work.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

They are first oversize. .5mm or .020" and the ring grooves are standard width for Chrysler.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Back to our regularly scheduled narrative. In bouncing things back and forth with a man who did a serpentine accessory drive system on a 2.2L engine and realizing that due to a number of reasons things are not going to fit the same due to (a) the width of the DOHC head and (b) the front mounted intake manifold.

The intake and water outlet occupy the location the AC compressor mounts to, it's mount covers up the area where #1 spark plug goes, leaving it down in a cavity. It also necessitates removal of the AC compressor mount to replace the timing belt.

What I initially did was order a VW Jetta balancer, which uses a 6 rib serpentine belt (same width as a lot of Fords). When I made a pilot for my crank gear to the ID of the center hole on the Jetta balancer so it would run true. Assembled the gear and hub assembly to the crank and bolted the balancer on. Slight problem, a lot of axial runout and some radial runout. Took everything off and started looking. I had found that I needed a roughly 7mm spacer inside the gear to line it up with the cam gears, problem, spacer wasn't parallel. I found some washers that would just fit inside the crank gear and could be opened up for the M12X1.5 crank bolt. One probably 4mm thick and one 3mm thick and I have a solid and true running gear and balancer.

After doing these, I stuck the head on the block with an MLS gasket like it will be using, tightened the nuts on the ARP studs and went to assemble the timing belt components. With the change from a 40 tooth intermediate shaft gear to a 42 tooth gear, my 150 tooth belt that just would go on, no longer fit, and the 152 tooth fit, but there wasn't enough tensioner range for it to be tight enough. Ok, ordered a 151 tooth belt, just happens to be for a Mitsubishi 4 cyl. Goes on snugly, but auto tensioner adjusts properly. Set it, ran it through probably 25 or 30 cycles, runs nicely on the gears, tensioner doesn't show any sign of uneven running and belt tracks centered on the cam and intermediate gears. The only issue is I am now about 1/2 tooth off on the cams.

I went and stuck the head cover, intake manifold, water outlet, distributor and dipstick on for fit, dipstick ends up about 180° from where it goes on the 8 valve head but should be easily accessible where it ended up.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

85lebaront2 wrote

Back to our regularly scheduled narrative.

This sounds like two steps forward and one backward. Still progress, but haltingly so.

What are you going to do about the cam timing? Off which way?

But it is looking like an engine, and that is PROGRESS!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

It is off either retarded or advanced, depending on which way I set the cam gears, I am going to try clamping them at the correct setting and then see if I can get the crank lined up right. The change in the intermediate shaft gear added 2 teeth in it's circumference, or roughly 1 tooth on that side of the belt.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

It is a 42-tooth sprocket on the cams? So you are off 1/84 or 4 degrees. That's a bit much to advance or retard the cams from what I remember.

But I'm missing how you might get it lined up on the crank. Offset key?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Yes, 42 teeth on the cans and intermediate shaft which drives the oil pump and originally the distributor. Crank is 21 teeth. The 2.5L engine used a similar belt profile, but a 20 tooth crank and 40 tooth cam and intermediate shaft.

The cams are timed using two notches on the rim of the gears and the arrows that say "up" and "2.4L Front", the back side says "2.0L Front". I am planning on using a straight edge across the 4 notches on the cam gears than use one of my Irwin soft jaw clamps to hold them in place. Since 1/2 tooth on a 42 tooth gear = 1 tooth on a 21 tooth gear, I am hoping it is just a tooth off at the crank as lining these up can sometimes be a real pain. This is why I am trying setting it up with no valve gear to push the cams one way or the other.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Ok, did a careful setting of the cam gears, and the crank ends up 1/3 tooth advanced, or 5.714° which converts to 2.857° retard at the cams. My TDC mark that I made on the crank seal housing using the timing marks that the cam and intermediate shaft are set to the crank so are not an absolute value so much as a setting (like cam and crank on a Ford V8). Unfortunately my degree wheel is buried somewhere in a container in Newport News. I will need it, a piston stop (easy with the head on as the plugs are centered and vertical) in order to figure out exact degrees.

Here is the tensioner setting after turning the crank 8 - 10 revolutions:

I got the early water pump in today, had the housing since Saturday and had already found a Ford Thermactor pump pulley for a six rib belt (probably off "Big Ugly" the 1990 parts truck). In doing a rough measurement of ODs on the original crank pulley grooved portion and the clockwise rotation water pump grooved pulley then doing the same for the VW balancer and Ford Thermactor pulley, my setup will spin the water pump 18.92% vs the original 18.18% faster than the crank so water flow should be good.

I will have to make a spacer for the Ford pulley to line it up with the balancer grooves. This will allow me to use my spare FS10 compressor and either a Ford remoter reservoir PS pump or a Saginaw pump and an alternator with a 6 groove pulley and a tensioner on the return side of the serpentine belt.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Can you find your timing wheel? I have one and the other stuff to send you.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

I have an idea where it is, but it's not easily accessible as it is in a large container in Newport News VA. As I am not planning on building the 2.5L DOHC hybrid right away, it isn't super critical.

The other item I need to figure out how to make is the spacer for the water pump pulley, or find one of the old fan spacer kits. It needs a bore on the pump side for the small pilot section of the shaft and a matching pilot on the pulley side. Probably right around 1/4" thick.

I still have to figure out mounts for:
AC compressor - probably front side
PS pump - with a remote reservoir where ever it fits
Alternator - need to get a later model one, smaller, higher output
Belt tensioner - once the others are located

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Ok, if it isn't critical let's wait. I'll send you an email re that subject.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

I have been off and on fiddling with the Konvertible hybrid engine, I went to Pick-n-Pull Labor day weekend with a friend from Virginia Beach and got some parts off a Chrysler Corp minivan with a 2.4L engine, intake manifold, AC compressor and mount and PS pump, all of which sit on the front side on a van. The alternator wasn't real easy so I left it there, did get some of the wiring for the engine.

Then a week ago last Thursday, I went to Newport News with the same friend and my Aluma trailer and picked up a 2.4L engine from a Dodge Stratus, primarily for the accessory mounts and accessories. It has the AC compressor in front like the van, alternator above it and PS pump on the back. It also has a much more compact mount bracket that is aluminum instead of cast iron.

Since there is limited space between the engine and shock tower, I had decided to go with a serpentine drive belt rather than 2 V belts and a small 4 rib polygroove. I looked at my options, first, the layout on the 2.2/2.5L engines is: water pump low on the front, alternator outboard (forward of it) AC compressor up almost completely in front of the head and PS pump high in the rear so it sits a little above the exhaust manifold. Chrysler used two different water pumps, 1982-1988 it was a clockwise rotation using a 4 groove pulley, the belt went around the alternator pulley, down under the water pump pulley then back to the crank pulley. In 1989 the water pump was changed to a counterclockwise rotation, which had two improvements, first the water flow has a smoother transition into the block and the alternator belt wrap is increased eliminating the startup squeal that was almost impossible to get rid of. The belt now ran around the alternator pulley, over top of the smooth water pump pulley then down to the crank pulley.

I tried looking at it with the early pulley (I made a 6 groove one from a Ford air pump pulley) and getting enough wrap on the alternator and AC compressor would involve putting an idler almost against the crank pulley. If I use the reverse rotation pump, I have to find a wide enough smooth drum/pulley for the water pump, but I retain the improvements. AC will still be up front, but a little lower to clear the intake, PS on back, lower down with a remote reservoir.

Belt drives as built for 2.2/2.5L

Belt drive using serpentine (center idler may or my not be needed)

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Obviously the serpentine system looks better, but can you do it with the brackets you have? Or brackets that are reasonably available?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Some I have, some I will make, I have 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" thick aluminum plate and lots of steel angle and some other bits.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

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