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85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

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Well, I haven't really done much at all to the konvertible since the last post on the seat control change. Between someone out west sending storms this way and trying to finish scrapping a couple of old John Deere 110 tractors so I can move the car over to that side of the garage I haven't been able to do much, however today I did get another part of the long term plan implemented.

Several years ago, I bought what was advertised as an SRT4 head, turbo and intake along with the parts to install it on a 2.5L short block. Since the head is a DOHC 16 valve one, it requires different pistons, preferably forged. Everything I was even finding were hypereutectic not forged. Yesterday someone on Turbododge.com advertised a set of Venolia pistons for a 2.5L 16 valve conversion along with a set of full floating rods and there are rings, but he isn't sure they are the right ones for the pistons, cost $500 + shipping. Shipping was $23, so for $523 I now have the needed pistons.

Since the head appears to be from a 2001 Stratus or Cirrus 2.4L, probably non-turbo, I caught my favorite junkyard owner on FB this evening. Last time I was over there, he had a turbo PT Cruiser that had an underhood fire, probably minor as the intake manifold (plastic) looked ok. I asked about getting the top end off it and he said remind him tomorrow so he can check on it or another 2.4L turbo engine. If he ends up just dropping it out, I may just go pick up the whole powertrain.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

grumpin

Re: T2K-CAR

Good find on the pistons! Seem spendy to me, but if you can’t find them, it’s good you did.

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

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In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Good find, Bill! And I hope your friend has what you need.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

In reply to this post by grumpin

Venolia is out of business and I checked the vendors who carry pistons. No forged available or if they are not these as they were for a custom build. In the turbo Mopar world it is called a "hybrid 16V" as the 2.5L was never made with a DOHC head. The TC by Maserati had a Lotus built head and Chrysler's Turbo III had one, both were 2.2L engines. The 2.0 and 2.4L are later design engines that still have the same bolt pattern for the head as the older 2.2 and 2.5L engines.

It is similar to the old Ford trick of putting 351C heads on a 289/302 short block. They fit but need some special parts. Chrysler had several levels of turbo engines, TIs were a low boost, originally 7 psi, TIIs got higher boost levels (10psi) and intercoolers. TIII went to 14psi intercooled and DOHC all these were 2.2L and the TII and TIII had forged cranks, pistons with floating wrist pins and hefty rods. The 2.5L turbos were all TIs except some Mexican models that received a TII 2.5L.

What I will be building has the longer stroke which helps low end torque, still using my intercooler and the DOHC head for top end power. The TII 2.2L pushed my 85 konvertible to over 120 and still climbing when my son took it up to Northern VA and someone tried to cut him off at the "mixing bowl" interchange.

DC traffic is a bear, years ago I had a guy in an Olds Vista Cruiser try to screw with me in my 66 Shelby GT350. He had cut me off trying to change lanes with my signal on, a mile or so later I was able to return the favor. We were going West on US 50 coming into DC, I had to make a right turn to get to my aunt and uncle's house. I was in the right lane which ends right where I had to turn. Clown is on my back bumper not realizing I am driving an only slightly detuned road race car. Corner comes, I jab the brakes, downshift to 2nd from 4th (we are going 60-65 mph) and as I get to the corner, yank the wheel, slide into the uphill turn and nail the throttle. As I look back in my mirror I see Vista Cruiser plow head on into the concrete retaining wall. BTW there are numerous "Right lane ends at xxx street" signs and I am reasonably sure he probably knew that but his little bit of road rage cost him.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, car is gone, he will do some checking for me. This is the guy who bought a 1987 Reliant sedan as a parts donor for mine.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

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In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Bummer on the car being gone. Maybe he can find something.

So your engine will be the 2.5, which is a stroked 2.2? But with the DOHC head. How much boost?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

To quote my father on your question "yes". 15 psi is the max I can currently run, if I use a 3 bar MAP sensor I can go to 30 psi. My transaxle becomes the limiting factor currently.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

I think I'd stay at 15ish and save the driveline.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Head problem is resolved, another member on Turbododge.com has a PT Cruiser turbo head with some bent valves, free for the shipping cost. I can use the valves from the head I have and since I have a complete set of seat refacing tools and a nice old Souix valve grinder I can recondition the head myself. He is even throwing in a set of Manganese Bronze guides (16). Those may be a fun job as I no longer have access to LN2 for chilling them nor do I have the tools for R&R of the guides.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

That's great, Bill! Can you farm out replacing the guides and then resurface the seats concentric to the new guides?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Don't know over here on Virginia's appendix. If I can find a tool for driving them in, I can do the job myself, just a big chunk of dry ice and possibly a way to heat the head. I have done many a Mercedes head that way, although I used to be able to obtain LN2 from a "backdoor" source.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Good luck!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

First I did some CAD (Cardboard Aided Design) on the head gasket differences as seen here: https://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Concerning-Conversation-With-DB-Electrical-tp120818p121030.html
This was using the three different head gaskets, Fel-Pro 9296 PT for the 2.5L which is the cylinder block, 9924 PT which is the 1995 - 2001 2.4L head which is the one i was sold as being for the SRT 4 Neon engine and finally 26202 PT which is for the 2003-2009 2.4L turbo engine and matches the head coming from Memphis with some bent valves.

All the heads use the same bolt pattern and 11 mm bolts, differences are in the oil supply and drain locations. The 2.5L head is similar to a 300 in the fact that both manifolds are on the same side of the head. As a result, the top of the head slants toward the front and all three of the drain holes and a smaller one are on the front near the front three middle head bolts. The oil feed is through a restrictor and up the left front head bolt hole to the oil gallery next to the lash adjusters that feeds them and the 5 cam bearings with squirt slits to lube the cam lobes and followers.

The 2.4L head is similar, but, there are three drain holes on the back side of the head behind the three rear center bolts. there is one in front very close to the location of one of the block's drains. Oil supply is similar, through a restrictor then up the left rear head bolt hole as that will solve a major problem and drill the cross passage at the flywheel end of the head through to it and possibly enlarge the bolt hole slightly.
The oil goes through two parallel galleries next to the lash adjusters and up to the 10 cam bearings.

Now, the more interesting issue, head alignment. The 2.5L block has two small solid dowels at the ends to align the head to the block and ensure that the cam is parallel to the crank, on the 2.4L engine the right rear and left front bolt holes have a 15 mm counter bore for hollow dowels which I (a) haven't found any so (b) took a 5/8" one and made a 15 mm one I can cut to length.

This was done by removing a .094" wide strip then filing the edges, using a small hose clamp to compress it and then a pair of vice grips to reshape it to a mostly round shape. The .094" was cut using a hacksaw blade and the filing was done with something Rusty will appreciate, these:

I have ordered a 15 mm drill from Amazon and have a large Portomag portable drill press that uses a big electromagnet to mount it to a ferrous piece. That way I can secure it and control the depth I relieve for the hollow dowels. The only concern is the left front dowel location is also the oil feed from the 2.5L block so I will need to make sure I have adequate flow. Most of the drains end up as external lines back into the oil pan. I am thinking about using the front center oil drain as a location to pull my PCV valve from so it will create a flow from the head into the oil pan.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Oh man!
I'm a file-ophile, and that makes me jigiddy 😍 🤣

Could you not get a piece of stock from McMaster or impose on Gary to set you up with the right stuff?

That seems a good idea to use engine vacuum to motivate your oil drain back.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Man, this is serious stuff working with oil supplies and returns. But, what do you need, Bill? Something I can make?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Not at the moment, maybe when I get the Turbo head in and start working on the oil drain issue. I do have one problem though, the Venolia pistons of course came with pins and retainers and the seller threw in a set of late turbo rods which have full floating wrist pins. The problem, Chrysler 2.5L wrist pin size is 0.9009" and rod bushing is 0.9145", Venolia pins are 0.927". Slight problem getting them to fit.

Venolia is of course out of business so no help there. As near as I can measure the actual bore diameter on the rods (outside of the bushing area) it is 0.943" meaning I only have .016" left if I could ream or hone the bores. Bushings appear to be copper on a steel backing. If the bushings are not worn, they seem to be clearanced for 0.0136" using the stock pins.

I may end up calling a place I know in Newport News and see if they have any ideas.

As was mentioned there are no automotive machine shops here on Virginia's appendix.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

All the really good engine shops around here are long gone.

I know some race guys that might have connections that could bore and ream connecting rod small ends.
But it's not like I could "take it to Joe in Bridgeport" or "Robbie in Larchmont" any more.
Those guys had equipment and knowledge that isn't any use in 2022.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

This post was updated on .

The one I used for years is gone, Keen's in Smithfield VA, the owner popped up on Facebook a while back, but he had long since closed the machine shop. The place in Newport News is another older shop, Dunkum's, Billy Dunkum is gone, the current owners are great though. Junior Keen and his father both worked for Billy Dunkum when the shop was way downtown.

Keen's did the Cobra 289 from my Shelby after the drain plug came out on I64 with a friend driving. I had a set of .030 over TRW Powerforged pistons I had purchased when a new parts warehouse was opening near us. The owner needed a certain volume of initial stock and told us (Preston) among others to order what we would like at cost + 10%. They went in the 289. Junior said that when he went to balance things, once he equalized the pistons, everything else was already done. That is also when I found the Ford VIN stamped upside down on the right side of the block.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

Ok, update on the 2.5L Hybrid. I caught the owner of FWD Performance on FB yesterday evening, They have a set of rods with the correct bushings and already set up with ARP bolts. $275 including shipping. I will not be surprised if they are a balanced set. She will ship them tomorrow (Monday) from Tomball TX. I have dealt with her business before so know the quality.

The other head arrived Friday, but due to fighting with a stripped drain plug hole in the 2009 Flex I didn't get to open it and look at it until yesterday. He sent everything except the little hydraulic lash adjusters which I can pull out of the Stratus head. I have the integrated turbocharger exhaust manifold that was used on these engines which limits you to the small Mitsubishi turbo.

He found me a custom manifold that uses the flange for the older Garrett Air Research or Mitsubishi turbos that were used from 1984 and 1989 until the advent of the 2.4L turbo with the integral turbo.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: T2K-CAR

Administrator

That sounds like excellent progress, Bill.

So now you don't have to ream the bushings. And you will have the ability to use different turbos.

But did you get the drain plug fixed?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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