My timing chain adventure begins..

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My timing chain adventure begins..

reamer
This post was updated on .
Well I'm 4 hours into it, Removed the Radiator, AC condenser, Manual fuel pump, PS pump/bracket, Alt/bracket.... Yep, 5 bolts snapped! Water pump off, looks like the original 34 year old pump. About a quarter inch thick pile of flakey corrosion behind it. It was a true fight to get it off, and Yes, Idiot me broke the ears off the aluminum Timing cover! I still have not got the cover off, still solidly on the block!
 (I guess all those corroded studs that used to have heads are holding it on. I'm tempted to smash off the cover with a chisel

Wondering if I should re-use the harmonic Balancer?
The new cast iron water pump, Why is the rear cover on it loosely? so I can RTV around the ports?
Reamer
1986 F-150 Flareside 4x4, 351, 4-v, ZF5 speed. AC, Cruise, Tilt, Slider, Digital clock, Radio, Lariat seat, Pwr doors/locks
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
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There should be a gasket for the block off plate in whatever kit you buy.
I went with FelPro, and there was everything I needed, except for RTV.

Busted bolts are a bitch.
But, at least, now that you've broken your timing cover you have nothing stopping you from getting caveman on what's left of it.
Do like I said and inject some muriatic acid in around the broken bolts (now studs?) and let it dissolve the corrosion.
Then you can gingerly pop the timing case off and get to work on those bolts..
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by reamer
Is your harmonic damper's rubber in good shape?
Did you check for scoring of the spacer?

Those are the only two things I would worry about.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

reamer
Hi Jim
I have not got to the balancer yet, If the rubber look good I plan on using it.

How long did you let the acid sit on the corrosion before it lets the cover move?
1986 F-150 Flareside 4x4, 351, 4-v, ZF5 speed. AC, Cruise, Tilt, Slider, Digital clock, Radio, Lariat seat, Pwr doors/locks
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
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I've used this method to get alternators off before.

The condition is the same.
Water gets in, bolt shank rusts, aluminum/magnesium is more active than iron/carbon, and the white scunge forms packing the entire cavity and locking to the bolt (or what's left of it) so you can't turn it, and you can't pull it off even if the head snaps.

You need to 'reduce' these oxides to get enough play.
Oxides are preferentially dissolved by the acid (before it starts working on solid metal)

Basically, the water or coolant has made a battery.
You've seen what happens when a battery leaks inside your favorite Maglite.

Drilling's not going to work because you can't stay centered on what's left of the much harder bolt.
It's just a matter of burn and flush out with water. Repeat until the cavity is free.

This is why I use PST, and stainless bolts.
It has always come apart easy for me, since I had to go through what you're dealing with when my plastic gear first went bad at around 75k.



 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

Steve83
In reply to this post by reamer
reamer wrote
Removed the Radiator, AC condenser, Manual fuel pump, PS pump/bracket, Alt/bracket...
I highly recommend pulling the engine - it's actually a LOT less work, and FAR less-frustrating.  You can actually get to what you're working on, and (most-importantly) you can seal the oil pan.  Browse this photo album:

Walk softly and carry a BIG SIX!!!
https://www.supermotors.net/registry/2742#album
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I can't imagine R&R'ing my engine in 5 hours, and I'd have the added hassles of clutch, intake, exhaust, and r&ring  the hood by myself.

5 hours is about what I'd have in it since everything came apart easily, and I don't have A.I.R. pumps.
IF I hadn't stopped to prep, paint and take pictures.... and, if I didn't wait overnight for JB Weld to harden.

I have a big 460 and can comfortably sit on the sway bar cross member and work on the front of the engine.
The Windsors must be even shorter than this????.....

I don't know how y'all work at stealerships, but yanking an engine to replace a timing chain seems a bit OTT.  

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

Steve83
As you can see, I didn't pull the hood.  I pulled the WP instead, which is much easier, and necessary anyway.  Pulling the engine isn't "for the timing chain" - it's for the oil pan.  Yes, many timing covers get replaced without pulling the pan, but I don't do it (or recommend doing it) that way.
Walk softly and carry a BIG SIX!!!
https://www.supermotors.net/registry/2742#album
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

reamer
Well 7 hours in, Finally got the cover off
Found it jumped a tooth and has a full inch of deflection!
It was the original timing cover and plastic gear set up.
The aluminum wall (between Water pump and chain compartment) started the corrode through too.
CompCam roller chain and gears coming soon!


1986 F-150 Flareside 4x4, 351, 4-v, ZF5 speed. AC, Cruise, Tilt, Slider, Digital clock, Radio, Lariat seat, Pwr doors/locks
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Three hours work to get that cover off?
I've got to give you the persistence award this week!  💪

Edit: I definitely would have cleaned that engine before touching a wrench.
Not only are you getting dirty, you're risking dropping some of that oily grit into your engine.

Are you able to get the broken bolts out of the block?

I'm glad 460's have a water pump backing plate!
My new FRPP one seems to be stainless (at least it shows no corrosion)

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

reamer
None of the bolts were frozen in the block, just super locked-up in the aluminum timing housing.
As I mentioned, First time on this, should have cleaned area first.

To get the broken bolts out, use my oxy torch and brought the aluminum to the melting point, and the bolt shafts to red hot, then some bees wax, (broke two ears off so cover earlier, so trash anyway).
The smaller oil pan bolts were finger loose too.

As Gary said, I now have a Speedisleeve I don't need 'caus the balancer rubber is missing chunks, and was scored up some, New balancer coming too.
1986 F-150 Flareside 4x4, 351, 4-v, ZF5 speed. AC, Cruise, Tilt, Slider, Digital clock, Radio, Lariat seat, Pwr doors/locks
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This is why I said 'if the covers ears are already broke off, drill a small hole into the bolt holes and use a syringe to inject some acid'

Well, if the balancer wasn't missing chunks you'd be using that sleeve.

Your case has the mechanical fuel pump, right?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

Gary Lewis
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In reply to this post by reamer
Ron - That chain is the most worn one I've seen.  Or, more specifically, the loosest I've seen as it may be just that the plastic is missing.

I really do NOT like the plastic on the timing sets.  Had a buddy with a '70 GTO that the plastic came off the gears, plugged the oil pump pickup, and locked the engine up.  And that was while it was under warranty, which was pretty short back then.

Anyway, you are going to be so pleased with how this thing runs with the new timing chain!

As for the balancer, when the rubber starts coming out the outer ring will soon slip and the balance is off and the timing marks are wrong.  Glad you are replacing it as well.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
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Slipping balancer could explain why it reads 10°, but really isn't.

Hell of a coincidence though!
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

Gary Lewis
Administrator
That would be just a bit too much coincidence for me.  

I'm still guessing the timing was reset after the chain jumped due to the poor way it ran.  But, with that much slack I can't imagine it not jumping again, and again, and again.  Unless it wouldn't run fast enough to jump?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

Steve83
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
This is the worst I've seen (not IRL), which is about like reamer's:



But I can't see the phenolic teeth on that one - it looks like an all-metal cam gear to me.  So I assume all its wear is at the pins & their holes in the chain.
Walk softly and carry a BIG SIX!!!
https://www.supermotors.net/registry/2742#album
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

Rembrant
In reply to this post by reamer
Ron,

I too had to replace the timing cover on my 302, but for a different reason. In my case, the PO had crossthreaded the fuel pump bolt holes and one of them was deformed. Between that and the overall corrosion and filth of the cover, I decided to replace it.

Something to watch for with a replacement cover is how well it fits on the dowel pins. My original Ford cover fit tight on the pins, but my replacement did not. It had to be centered on the balancer during installation, which is no big deal, but it is something to check for. If it does need to be centered on the balancer, this will make lowering the oil pan almost a necessity.

Glad you found the problem in there. This thing is going to run very nice when it's all tightened back up!!
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/GT40 heads, BBK headers, Holley 4bbl, XE256H Comp Cam, M5R2 5spd swap, Magnaflow full duals. Fresh Medium Blue Metallic in August 2019.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
It will act like a new truck.

Or at least, a truck you've never known.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

reamer
Well I got a new balancer today, But the original weighs 5.5 lbs. This one weighs 6.5 lbs. is 1 pound heavier going to be an issue?
1986 F-150 Flareside 4x4, 351, 4-v, ZF5 speed. AC, Cruise, Tilt, Slider, Digital clock, Radio, Lariat seat, Pwr doors/locks
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Re: My timing chain adventure begins..

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
That seems really odd Ron.

Is it a Ford part????
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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