Bullnose Enthusiasts Forum

E4OD For Dad’s Truck

Classic

List

Threaded

397 messages Options

1 ... 14151617181920

Bruno2

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

I cant remember if you already have a tranny or not for the build? The E4OD's are expensive to build parts wise. However, some of the transmissions already have some of the upgraded parts in them depending on what year they are and what they came out of. So if you have a core you may already have some of the better parts.A tranny shop probably wouldnt tell you if you did where I believe Steve would.

I am sure Steve will give you a warranty with a build. Also, I think Steve would be more understanding about the warranty in a situation where you have 3yrs or 36,000, but the unit doesnt go in for a year or longer because of truck build technical difficulties that may arise. So if his tranny broke prematurely although it may have exceeded the warranty period , but wasnt in actual use for such and such amount of time I believe he would help a guy out instead of washing his hands of it using the rules are the rules for an excuse.

Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

I do have a tranny from this 1990 F150 I’m parting out. But most of the factory changes came after ‘90, so this one won’t have them. However Charles at Aspen said that’s no problem for him as he has most of the good stuff in stock. Or, he may start with another core to make it easier.

And the warranty is the same kind of thing with Charles - it starts when I fire the engine up. But if Steve will also do that then he’s in contention.

As for the “magical” things, some places think their whole transmission is magical. Or their name may be the magic. Brian’s Truck Shop in Arkansas wants $5000 for their base E4OD, as do several others - regardless of the fact theirs are built to handle 1000+ ft-lbs and my engine puts out 1/2 that. But they don’t do anything with a smaller rating. And their warranty starts when you pay for it.

Anyway, I’ll call Steve. Thanks for the reference.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Bruno2

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

I would ask Steve what he knows about Aspen. There is a good chance he knows the owner or may have taught his builders or even the owner at some point. Aspen's fees dont really seem that far out of line. Like I was saying these guys that want $5000 for these transmissions may or may not be worth their salt. I know a lot of diesel truck drag racers and sled pullers buy them so they may have quite a turn over rate at these big interweb shops simply because their customers are extremely abusive to their equipment. Having to tear down and inspect as well as diagnose why it failed and who's fault it is may occupy quite a bit of their revenue. Also, I know some of them use billet components and that stuff is expensive.

The reason I am suggesting Steve is because I think he will be honest about his answers to questions. The E4OD was not designed to be a light truck transmission. They were designed to go in bigger trucks than 1 tons,, but werent quite adequate for that is what I was told by another builder with a lot of experience. The E4OD is designed off of the C6. They are virtually the same in some aspects. The C6 may indeed be one of the most durable tranny's ever made. On the Yellow Bullet forums there are a lot of guys running them with North of 600 HP in front of them in stock form. I really dont think your build needs to be as "part" intense as some others. Let's say 500 HP/500 FTLBS is probably within the acceptable power range of stock. However, I am more like you and would want some of the more abused parts to be upgraded to insure longevity.

Charles makes his living by selling transmissions and transmission work. He is going to be somewhat motivated to sell even if he is one of the more honest tranny guys in town. Steve makes his living as an educator and does tranny work on the side. The shop in Steve's backyard doesnt have a need for constant overhead to be paid like Charles' does.

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

Good points. The web site for BTS has info on people who have set various racing records with their transmissions. I know that racing of any kind is really hard on equipment, but I don’t intent to do that so don’t need that serious of a tranny. So I don’t need “bullet-proof”. However, I do want a solid tranny that will not have problems.

I’ll report back after calling Steve.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

The one in Darth was taken out of the 1990 F250 that the EFI parts came from (and the short block that is now built). I talked to Bert Hawkes about going through it and he told me if it was working OK, leave it alone, just throw a filter in it and fill it up. That was several years and miles ago, still working great. I am going to do a service and change to the later pan and gasket sometime. Most likely it will be when the engine is changed.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

My problem is I don’t know whether this one was running right or not. But two pan bolt holes are stripped, so the pan has been off - and re-installed by some ham-handed person. They replaced the bolts with 1/4-20 Phillip-headed screws with nuts on the top. 🙈

Charles said that’s no problem as he will helicoil those two, but if he finds very many more he’ll swap the case for another he has stashed. And it is comments like that which gave me confidence in him.

But, not knowing anything about the tranny, not to mention the two stripped bolt holes, gives me zero confidence in this tranny. So it’ll be gone through and upgraded.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

Gary Lewis wrote

But, not knowing anything about the tranny, not to mention the two stripped bolt holes, gives me zero confidence in this tranny. So it’ll be gone through and upgraded.

Can't say that I blame you in the least for that, FWIW, the Chrysler A604/41TE cases are famous for stripping the nice M8X1.25 holes in the aluminum case, as a result I keep a helicoil kit in that thread size.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

Had a good conversation with Brandon's friend/neighbor Steve Cummings today. He's going to work up a proposal for me starting on Monday. But here are some of the major points from the discussion:

Price: He's guessing it'll be $1300 to $1500 for a "stockish" build, and $2200 to $2500 for a heavy-duty build

Ford Upgrades: He's not sure all of the upgrades that Ford did over the years, as shown on my E4OD Upgrade whiteboard, are necessary. In fact, if I want all of those it may be better to sell this core and buy a later model core that already has the upgrades.

Clutch Upgrades: He likes to use Alto Red Eagle clutch material. Said there is a blue material, but it is a "stage 3" or racing material and is hard on the steel in the clutch pack.

Billet: Don't need billet anything.

Torque Converter: The brazed and multiple-disk converters are really for the diesel engine. For my application he thinks the What Ever It Takes Gas HD converter would be good. It has a single Kevlar clutch.

Pan: For one with a drain plug he'd go cast aluminum. However later ones, like from '97 on, have a drain plug.

Warranty: He gives 12 months or 12,000 miles. But he would defer the start of it until I get the truck fired up.

Finish: He soaks them in a vat and they come out clean. However, the aluminum may be tarnished,
so he could paint it if I want.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Bruno2

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Sounds like you had an informative conversation with Steve. It almost sounds like 6 of 1 or a half dozen of the other between Steve and Charles. The only factor I noticed was Steve sounds more inclined to keep the parts bill down by letting you be a little more selective on what to use. However, I dont think it is going to be an earth shattering savings like maybe $200-$300. Dont get me wrong it is enough money to consider. Steve may even have a good line on cheap cores if you wanted upgraded parts.

I am a little hesitant to push or sell you one way or the other because I did recommend an interior shop to a guy that didnt create a good experience...

ArdWrknTrk

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

*inferior* shop.....

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

In reply to this post by Bruno2

First, do both of us a favor and FORGET that upholstery shop, using the term loosely. PLEASE! That almost makes me cry, and it wasn't your fault.

Anyway, if I had to chose today I'd go with Charles. It isn't a big difference, but I just got a better warm fuzzy with him. For instance, he was planning to make all of those Ford upgrades, and yet it looks like his price will be very comparable to Steve's. Part of that may be because Charles seems to have plenty of cores around and may be thinking of using a later model one just to get the upgrades.

And, Steve seemed to be saying to get a drain plug I'll have to buy an aluminum pan, which Charles seemed to be saying he'd just use a later model pan that he has on hand.

But, that's all conjecture at this point as I'll not be making any decisions until I get Steve's proposal. And then I may go back to Charles to get more clarity so I can compare the two proposals. Either way, it looks like there are competent people in the T-town area that will build a good E4 for about 1/2 what the "big boys" want.

Oh, and Steve doesn't know Charles. Has heard of Aspen, but doesn't know anything good or bad about them.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Inferior interior.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

As an update, Brandon and I had a phone conversation last evening that pointed out something that had been bothering me about what Steve said but I’d really not realized. He apparently told Brandon in a face-to-face conversation that he thinks a good “stock” build would be what I need. And in our conversation he said a “stockish” build might suit me.

My problem with that idea is that I don’t know what he means by “stock”. Part of my confusion is because there was, obviously, no stock E4OD for a 1981 F150. Second, Ford apparently put several upgrades in the transmission through the 90’s. From what I can decipher from the Baumann site:

In 1992 they installed a revised sun gear and rear case bushings to provide longer wear life and better lubrication. In addition they added 4-pinion planet carriers on some models.

In 1994 they installed a thicker converter clutch piston, which prevents the formation of cracks which relieve fluid pressure from the apply side of the clutch, causing it to slip. Further, 4-pinion overdrive planet and input shaft assemblies replaced older 3 and 4 pinion units which tend to develop cracks in the carrier under heavy loads. And, there was a center support update kit which replaced a wear-prone bushing with a ball bearing and contained a new overdrive stub shaft.

In 1995 they added a higher displacement front pump, which provides more fluid capacity for faster engagement of reverse and greater lube flow.

In addition, somewhere along the way they added a stronger overdrive clutch cylinder snap ring which will not dislodge. And, new forward clutch friction plates with hardened internal splines to cure "chatter" and "no-drive conditions.

So I’m having a hard time understanding “stock” or “stockish”. But if any of you see what I’m missing please enlighten me. Hopefully Steve’s proposal will shed some light on it as well.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

I think the upgrades are a given, even in a "stock" build.

I have had a couple E4OD's over the years. I don't think internal modifications are necessary with the possible exception of a converter. I snapped one on my E350 7.3 IDI powered motorhome. Got a replacement with a "billet snout" whatever that may be. Any other mods would best be served by trying to keep it cool. Those transmissions do not like heat!

As for rebuilding, I have my favorite up in Winnipeg, Manitoba and my reasoning is that Ultra Transmissions is the only local rebuilder with a transmission dyno, so he runs up each rebuild before it goes to the customer. Some low priced shops do not do this. I have been very happy with this service.

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

Thanks for the reply. I think we are thinking alike on the "stock" build. If Ford thought the upgrades were necessary then why would I think they aren't?

As for other modifications, there are two that I'm thinking would be good - the number and quality of the clutch plates, and the torque converter. My limited knowledge says that Ford used more clutch plates in the transmissions behind the bigger engines than those behind the smaller engines. So, I'd like to ensure I have enough to handle the torque of this engine, which is a bit more than a stock 460 but not nearly as much as a stock diesel. And on the torque converter I want one that is going to handle the load w/o slipping, and generating heat.

Last, you've said something that reminded me of something Steve said that I forgot to document. He doesn't dyno all of the transmissions that he builds as the dyno is at the school where he teaches. But, that implies that he will dyno them, and it would be nice to know that it works well before I put it in the truck.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

The secret on keeping it cool, is lock up the clutch as early as practical, let the engine do the work like it does for a manual.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

Sounds like a good plan. And one you can tell me how to do when the time comes. 👍

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Bruno2

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

I dont know just how necessary a dyno run is. I think it would be nice, but not necessary. All shops air test the trannies to make sure everything is functioning. An auto tranny is fairly simple and to someone that has built them for years I am sure they are more than simple assemble.

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

A dyno run is probably only necessary if there are questions about some aspect of a build. For instance, can you pack that many frictions in that clutch pack and get it to release. But, when someone is building a tranny in a case that no one involved has seen run, it would prove that the case isn’t porous. And, it would point out any leaks that might case the tranny to have to be pulled and re-sealed.

So it isn’t necessary, but would be insurance that all is well.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Administrator

I heard from Brandon's friend/neighbor Steve today. But I don't fully understand his response, so could use some help.

I sent him this list of Baumann's suggested upgrades saying I wanted to make sure they are included:

Improved (thicker) converter clutch piston (circa 1994), prevents the formation of cracks which relieve fluid pressure from the apply side of the clutch, causing it to slip and even bluing the outside surface of the torque converter in extreme cases. Ensure that your new converter contains an updated OEM or "LuK" brand heavy-duty clutch. This can be difficult, as many torque converter suppliers and remanufacturers may not use this new style of clutch.

Higher displacement front pump (for 1995) provides more fluid capacity for faster engagement of reverse and greater lube flow.

New (for 1994) 4-pinion overdrive planet and input shaft assemblies replace older 3 and 4 pinion units which tend to develop cracks in the carrier under heavy loads.

Center support update kit (for units built from 1989 through part of 1994) replaces wear-prone bushing with a ball bearing and contains a new overdrive stub shaft.

Stronger overdrive clutch cylinder snap ring which will not dislodge.

Revised sun gear and rear case bushings (circa 1992 model year) provide longer wear life and better lubrication.

4 pinion planet carriers (first used in 1992 model year)

New forward clutch friction plates with hardened internal splines cure "chatter" and "no-drive" conditions in E4OD and some later C-6 transmissions.

And I got the following response:

The shift kit comes with the new updated snap rings, the converter is the updated clutch disc, The forward clutches are the later ones, The center support, stub shaft , and the 1995 later pump
With the roller bearing is $192.00. I install new sun gear and case bushings in each build. The total price for the parts and labor and supplies is $2200.00.

So, did he say all of the things are included?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

1 ... 14151617181920

E4OD For Dad’s Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Price: He's guessing it'll be $1300 to $1500 for a "stockish" build, and $2200 to $2500 for a heavy-duty build

Ford Upgrades: He's not sure all of the upgrades that Ford did over the years, as shown on my E4OD Upgrade whiteboard, are necessary. In fact, if I want all of those it may be better to sell this core and buy a later model core that already has the upgrades.

Clutch Upgrades: He likes to use Alto Red Eagle clutch material. Said there is a blue material, but it is a "stage 3" or racing material and is hard on the steel in the clutch pack.

Billet: Don't need billet anything.

Torque Converter: The brazed and multiple-disk converters are really for the diesel engine. For my application he thinks the What Ever It Takes Gas HD converter would be good. It has a single Kevlar clutch.

Pan: For one with a drain plug he'd go cast aluminum. However later ones, like from '97 on, have a drain plug.

Warranty: He gives 12 months or 12,000 miles. But he would defer the start of it until I get the truck fired up.

Finish: He soaks them in a vat and they come out clean. However, the aluminum may be tarnished, so he could paint it if I want.

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

In 1992 they installed a revised sun gear and rear case bushings to provide longer wear life and better lubrication. In addition they added 4-pinion planet carriers on some models.

In 1995 they added a higher displacement front pump, which provides more fluid capacity for faster engagement of reverse and greater lube flow.

In addition, somewhere along the way they added a stronger overdrive clutch cylinder snap ring which will not dislodge. And, new forward clutch friction plates with hardened internal splines to cure "chatter" and "no-drive conditions.

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Re: E4OD For Dad's Truck

Higher displacement front pump (for 1995) provides more fluid capacity for faster engagement of reverse and greater lube flow.

New (for 1994) 4-pinion overdrive planet and input shaft assemblies replace older 3 and 4 pinion units which tend to develop cracks in the carrier under heavy loads.

Center support update kit (for units built from 1989 through part of 1994) replaces wear-prone bushing with a ball bearing and contains a new overdrive stub shaft.

Stronger overdrive clutch cylinder snap ring which will not dislodge.

Revised sun gear and rear case bushings (circa 1992 model year) provide longer wear life and better lubrication.

4 pinion planet carriers (first used in 1992 model year)

New forward clutch friction plates with hardened internal splines cure "chatter" and "no-drive" conditions in E4OD and some later C-6 transmissions.

Finish: He soaks them in a vat and they come out clean. However, the aluminum may be tarnished,
so he could paint it if I want.