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FoxFord33

"Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

This post was updated on .

Hello! Welcome to the project thread for my 1990 Jeep (AMC/Chrysler/GM/FoMoCo) Grand Wagoneer.

A quick introduction, in case you didn't know, these vehicles were quirky to say the least! After the classic lines of the outward appearance, this is what attracts me to them even more. I, like some of you, am a fan of automobiles in general, but don't have a favorite brand. That is a good thing for a GW owner, since they have parts from all of the "Big Three." Wells ignition module also used by Ford, MotorCraft 2150 carb, Singer window switches from a 75 Grenada from the look of things... Add to that the steering column from an 88 Caprice Classic, and the transmission from a 90 Dodge Ram Truck, and stir it together, pouring it into the classic mold designed by Brooks Stevens in 1963, and you get the Grand Wagoneer that I drive daily.

I am, however, partial to the Ford powertrain which includes the fuel-injected version of the old-style blocks: the 5.0/5.8, and the computer-controlled transmission of the same era: the E4OD. Others have done engine swaps before me on these outstanding vehicles, but usually they are from the same sheepfold who put LS motors into everything. That would be easy, since there is plenty of documentation on that subject, but I have a dream (cue inspirational music). I have a dream that one day, old, aesthetically-pleasing design can go hand-in-hand with modern, computer-controlled drivetrains. I have a dream that doing things that are unheard-of can work well, even though it was never documented before. I will need help (that's enough inspirational music, probably the record scratch sound now...) with most of this.

I have decided that this list should go here for anyone who is looking for it later.

You people have shown that you are experts in more than just Ford. You are experts in many many brands and applications. So that is why I am putting this here, on a site dedicated to being the best resource for Bullnose Ford Trucks. You people know, I imagine, almost everything that I will need to ask. So here is my project. I will be asking, and I thank you all in advance for your input and opinions.

Ford Grand Wagoneer - 1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer preparing to receive a Ford drivetrain...

A Keeper - 1993 F-150 XLT Super-Cab 5.0 EFI 2WD E4OD 8.8" with 3.55 gear Sold it for my Grand Wagoneer project!

Gary Lewis

Re: "Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

Administrator

I'm in! But I missed the inspirational music. I kept hearing MLK.

Do you want me to move the discussion from the Lounge here? Easily done.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

FoxFord33

Re: The FORD Lounge

Ok, my dudes...lots of changes and I haven't changed my sig to reflect it yet. Long and short: my kids outgrew the truck and I found a vehicle that the whole family is excited about...A Jeep Grand Wagoneer.

Now, this thing runs and drives with the AMC 360, TF 727, and NP 229. (Here's where this discourse finally turns Ford) I need to turn it modern, and I don't want to just slap in a LS like almost every other swap out there.

I'm thinking "Powered by Ford." However, there's just not much published experience out there. I found Novak, and they have engine swap parts, but not much for auto trans like E4OD...

So... this may be a conversation that needs to be moved somewhere, but my goal is to document it and put it out there for any others who want a choice other than Generic Motors. GM LS wouldn't be bad, but it wouldn't be Ford.

Sound interesting?

Ford Grand Wagoneer - 1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer preparing to receive a Ford drivetrain...

A Keeper - 1993 F-150 XLT Super-Cab 5.0 EFI 2WD E4OD 8.8" with 3.55 gear Sold it for my Grand Wagoneer project!

Gary Lewis

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

Sounds interesting! And I'm happy to be involved - both with shop time awa on here. (To those that don't know, Steve/FoxFord33 and his family are very good friends of mine and live maybe 2 miles away. The Jeep has already been in the shop a couple of times and will surely be many more times as he works on it.)

How 'bout you start a thread either in the main section or the projects folder and we will all contribute? In fact, I can move these posts to that thread if you want.

As for the Ford idea, what would be ideal would be to find a donor vehicle with a running engine and tranny. Preferably a 4wd vehicle. Then you'd have everything needed for the swap, save for having driveshafts made up as it isn't likely the current ones will fit or be the right length. And to fit the "modern" plan you want one with the EEC-V system and a fully operable OBD-II port.

I'm sure someone else can tell us what the vehicles and years are, but Broncos, Explorers, and the F-Series trucks would be the best candidates. But the years are the question. As said, I think the best is EEC-V, but if you found one with EEC-IV maybe that is a consideration. That just limits you on what you can do to the engine.

Anyway, looks like a fun project!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

In reply to this post by FoxFord33

I am going out on a limb here, but listen. First Jeep used all sorts of different engines in the Wagoneer (It wasn't called Grand Wagoneer in those days) Buick engines were used before AMC engines. If you look at that AMC 360 you will see a Ford carburetor unless it's been changed. Second item, remember the Bricklin? It was originally built with the same AMC 360 in 1974, in 1975 they came with Ford 351W engines.

If you can find how the engines were mounted in the Bricklin a nice late production (roller cam) 351 and E4OD could be used along with a compatible transfer case (therein lies the rub to paraphrase Shakespeare) Ford uses a left side front driveshaft where everyone else seems to use a right side one. This means that either the present transfer case will need to be able to connect to the E4OD in placed of the Torqueflite 727 that is probably in it now or you will have to find one that will work since a Ford one would have to be mounted upside down which at a minimum would cause lubrication issues.

Good luck with it, sounds like a fun challenge!

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

Bill - I hadn't thought about the transfer case and the "drop". He has D44's front and rear, but when we had it on the lift I didn't look at which side the front driveshaft was on, although I would have thought I'd notice if it was on the right. However, Novak says:

In 1980, the full-size Jeeps made a major shift in Jeeps 39 year history to a driver's side front differential and the widespread use of chain-driven transfer cases. These transfer cases include the New Process 208, 219, 228 and 229 models.

So, he must have a left-drop t-case. And that makes going with a Ford driveline much easier.

As for the carb, he is learning about power valves and fabric accelerator pumps.

He says it will fall on its face from a stop unless you go VERY lightly on the throttle. I guessed a blown accelerator pump and he took a couple of 2150 kits with him and swapped the pump out - no avail. So I'm now guessing blown power valve and it is sooooo rich at idle that the accelerator pump is causing it to stumble.

Your thoughts?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

It could also be in the distributor. I don't know which ignition system it has (AMC had their own electronic one called BID for breakerless inductive distributor if I remember correctly) as they used some GM stuff, some Ford, some Chrysler. We used to say AMC stood for All American Cars as they used parts from all of the big 3.

Just tell him it's a nice Fiat.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

The ignition module has a blue strain relief grommet.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

FuzzFace2

Re: The FORD Lounge

NO DONT DO IT

You want to go with less CID to push that big heavy SUV around, why?
AMC v8's have one of the best flowing factory heads made, it's in the dog leg

If you want EFI Eldel makes or did a projection unit that bolts on just make sure you use and pan gasket and the factory intake baffle that bolts to the bottom with any non-stock manifold or you will be sucking up oil.

You may not find a lot of "speed" parts for the AMC motor in catalogs or on line so you need to call for what you maybe looking for.
I don't know if you can get a bolt in roller cam but they do (or did) make bolt in roller rockers.

If you could not tell I am a big fan of AMC power but have been out of the game for a few (to long) years so I don't know what all may have changed in that time.

Oh that bog off idle on that 2150 v2 carb throw it in the trash and get a Holley 2300 in either a 350 CFM or 500 CFM.
I could not get the factory cab on a 304 to run right and installed the 2300 500 CFM. After a little tuning it was the best thing I did to the motor.
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

85lebaront2

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Have you checked for a bad pickup wire? Apply and release vacuum to the advance diaphragm with it running to see if it cuts out.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

FoxFord33

Re: The FORD Lounge

Thank you, guys! As always, your expertise and opinions are valued by me!
I surely will check the items you listed for compatibility and for my land-yacht launches.

I do understand that the motor which it already has would be the very easiest thing to keep, but... it may just boil down to, "I wanna do this because I haven't seen it done, and I think it wants to be a Ford."

Anyway, I will start a thread in "Projects" when I'm not on lunch break...

Ford Grand Wagoneer - 1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer preparing to receive a Ford drivetrain...

A Keeper - 1993 F-150 XLT Super-Cab 5.0 EFI 2WD E4OD 8.8" with 3.55 gear Sold it for my Grand Wagoneer project!

85lebaront2

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

In reply to this post by FuzzFace2

Probably would run great with a nice big in-line 6, say a Hudson Hornet Twin H power, loads of torque and it used dual Carter singles approved by Gary. There are adapters to install modern automatics and even going to a Torqueflite 3 speed with a lock-up converter (early ones were strictly hydraulic, no electronics involved) would give some decent efficiency.

On the AMC last generation V8s, best friend bought what we think was the Traco engineering Javalin, it was a race car from the beginning and not Mark Donahue's. SCCA log book went back to 1967 for the first entries. The dog leg port heads were strong and the interesting thing with the car came single and dual four barrel intakes made by Edelbrock with both the Edelbrock PN and an AMC PN. He sold the car, but kept a lot of the spare parts. His barn caught fire one night and all of the stuff was destroyed.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

FuzzFace2

Re: The FORD Lounge

In reply to this post by FoxFord33

FoxFord33 wrote

Thank you, guys! As always, your expertise and opinions are valued by me!
I surely will check the items you listed for compatibility and for my land-yacht launches.

I do understand that the motor which it already has would be the very easiest thing to keep, but... it may just boil down to, "I wanna do this because I haven't seen it done, and I think it wants to be a Ford."

Anyway, I will start a thread in "Projects" when I'm not on lunch break...

I under stand the "I wanna do this because I haven't seen it done, and I think it wants to be a Ford.".
I just wanted you to know there are options for the AMC power plants as a FYI.

Oh they also made a 401 they looks just like the 304 / 360 and the only way to tell is behind the motor mount brackets is casted the CID. If yours is a 360 it would be cast on the side.
Unless it was a service block then it would not be casted as the motor could be bored from 304 to 401 as a replacement.

I will be following along, maybe a 460 could be dropped in hint hint

Dave ----

85lebaront2

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

The 2nd and 3rd gen AMC V8s were so close, my friend with the Javelin needed an engine in a hurry and threw one together from his parts collection. It ran pretty good, but when he pulled it down later he found the pistons weren't coming all the way up, he had put an early crank in a late block and had the late pistons and rods so instead of the 3.44 stroke of the 304/360 he had the 3.28 stroke of the 290/343.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

FoxFord33

Re: "Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

In reply to this post by FoxFord33

Current Stage: beginning phase. Discussion of possibilities and solutions to forseen problems.

I already have the Grand Wagoneer, and everything that comes with it. So what do I want? I want to replace the drivetrain with an electronically controlled one so that the vehicle will be modernized. I want to also make it as simply as possible, so perhaps lever-controlled TC instead of vacuum motor (which is not working right now anyway). Twin sticks is an oft-used "upgrade" for these vehicles. I know from experience that the 5.0 is no pushover, being able in my last one with 200k+ miles to tow Gary's heavy trailer. So an even fresher one ought to be even more robust. I don't plan to do heavy towing, anyway, so... but I want the drivetrain to be a little abuse-proofed. E4OD has been touted as both "a problem-prone transmission" and "an excellent transmission which stands up to heavy wear and tear," so that's a spectrum... but my old one in my truck was great. I know if one puts the right parts into an E4OD, it can do whatever you want it to. Plus, it's computer-controlled, so that's the attraction to it. This is all with the caveat: "Unless a better idea exists."

Let's define "better:" Cheaper, stronger, cheaper, less prone to break, cheaper, requiring less maintenance, cheaper, and cheaper. I am willing to do some up-front preparation such as rebuilding said transmission or engine in order to make it fit the "better" metric. But only insomuch as it doesn't cost a mint. So, I have a lot of faith in my abilities and your expertise, and less money than that.

Right now I am leaning toward 5.0, E4OD, and trying to retain the NP229. It is Left-hand drop (driver's side). So, do any of my readers have a "better" idea?

Ford Grand Wagoneer - 1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer preparing to receive a Ford drivetrain...

A Keeper - 1993 F-150 XLT Super-Cab 5.0 EFI 2WD E4OD 8.8" with 3.55 gear Sold it for my Grand Wagoneer project!

1986F150Six

Re: The FORD Lounge

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

85lebaront2 wrote

Just tell him it's a nice Fiat.

Fix

It

Again

Tony

Gary Lewis

Re: "Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

Administrator

In reply to this post by FoxFord33

What's the bolt pattern from it to the tranny? Chizzler or Ford? If you go with the E4OD, and I think that's a good "modern" transmission, you'll obviously need a Ford-pattern t-case.

As for an E4OD being able to be strong, I don't have proof yet, but the one in Dad's truck was built to easily withstand its 400 HP/500 lb-ft. And the Turner's V10-powered motor home has one in it. Granted they've had some problems with it, but think of the huge weight difference!

Is there an easy solution to convert the vacuum shifting to lever on the NP229? If so, then maybe you could convert to that. But the vacuum system isn't all that complicated and the levers to go mechanical are rather large. And, the Bullnose ones come through the top of the transmission tunnel. However, I should have the later mechanism, and it come through the side of the transmission tunnel.

I still think a wrecked donor 4wd truck is the way for you to go. You'd have all of the pieces you need from an EFI and transmission standpoint, and you will be very surprised how many times you'll have to go back and get more pieces.

What about the hubs? Have you figured out how they work?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

FuzzFace2

Re: "Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

On the NP229 transfer I want to say it will be a full time 4x4 case and no locking hubs or even a front axle disconnect but could be wrong.

I also want to say if the above is right it is a single speed case, no low gearing.
When you flip the (vacuum) switch a (vacuum) motor moved the lever on the case to "lock".
IIRC one of the GM cases was like this but you moved a shifter stick, but think it also had a low range.
It would have a high & high lock, think neutral, low & low lock - no locking hubs. If a drive shaft was removed the truck would not move unless shifted to "lock".

I also want to say the transfer case did not have a GM / Chry / Ford / Dodge pattern as they used an adapter between the transfer case & transmission. This adapter would have the transmission side pattern, in this case for the TF727 transmission tail shaft housing.

Note: this AMC TF727 is a Chry TF727 in every way OTHER THAN the motor side bell housing bolt pattern and that is AMC in this case.
Also being a 4x4 trans the output shaft is a shorter 4x4 part so to be used in a 4x2 you would need to swap this 4x4 output shaft out for the 4x2 and tail housing to go with it.

So with that said how much of what I said of your transfer case is true of the single speed and no locking hubs? If you want a low range you might look for one that has it and needing locking hubs, change yours for locking type for better MPG.

Does Novak or Advance Adaptors make any adaptors & spud shafts for the AOD or EAOD and if so to what transfer cases? I think this is where the trouble will be to mate the transfer & trany together.
Dave ----

FuzzFace2

Re: "Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

Oh on the Bricklin the switch from AMC to Ford power I believe was because AMC went on strike and he needed motors and Ford had them.

Now I don't know this for sure but I want to say the frame mounts were changed, think they were all welded as I never looked that close at them on an AMC power car, not that you could see them from up top LOL.
So he would have just made that little change to drop in the Ford motor.

You may want to look into CJ5 & CJ7 motor mount kits as I think someone made Ford frame mounts to drop in the 302 into them.
Your frame I am sure is a little wider than the CJ's, cant remember now its been so long playing with the CJ's and 73 or 74 Wagoner, but want to say Jeep just made 1 of the frame mounts a little longer on 1 side for the Wagoner to fit the AMC motors in. I also want to say the frame mounts bolt in.
If you could get a kit for a CJ you would just need to do the same, 1 side longer.
Dave ----

Gary Lewis

Re: "Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

Administrator

In reply to this post by FuzzFace2

Novak says this of the NP228 & 229:

The NP228 had a direct-drive 2wd mode. It used an internal, open differential for four-wheel-drive mode and high range and featured a fully locked mode in four-wheel-drive, low range. It featured vacuum actuation for mode operation and a conventional shifter linkage for range operation. This transfer case was used in the XJ Cherokees as the optional in lieu of the NP207.

The NP229 was similar to the NP228, but it featured an internal viscous coupling for full-time operation. This transfer case was offered in the FSJ Grand Wagoneer.

I think what this is saying is that the 229 has both high and low range, but that it is always in 4wd mode, and that is done via the viscous coupling. But Steve says that the coupling is not replaceable. So my suggestion is that he change that t-case out to something else, and I have an NP208 I've offered him.

As for the hubs, it appears that Steve's hubs are locked all the time. So if he changes to a part-time t-case, like the NP208, I think he will need to see if there are replacement hubs that can be locked and un-locked.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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