85lebaront2

Gary, car is gone, he will do some checking for me. This is the guy who bought a 1987 Reliant sedan as a parts donor for mine.

Venolia is out of business and I checked the vendors who carry pistons. No forged available or if they are not these as they were for a custom build. In the turbo Mopar world it is called a "hybrid 16V" as the 2.5L was never made with a DOHC head. The TC by Maserati had a Lotus built head and Chrysler's Turbo III had one, both were 2.2L engines. The 2.0 and 2.4L are later design engines that still have the same bolt pattern for the head as the older 2.2 and 2.5L engines. It is similar to the old Ford trick of putting 351C heads on a 289/302 short block. They fit but need some special parts. Chrysler had several levels of turbo engines, TIs were a low boost, originally 7 psi, TIIs got higher boost levels (10psi) and intercoolers. TIII went to 14psi intercooled and DOHC all these were 2.2L and the TII and TIII had forged cranks, pistons with floating wrist pins and hefty rods. The 2.5L turbos were all TIs except some Mexican models that received a TII 2.5L. What I will be building has the longer stroke which helps low end torque, still using my intercooler and the DOHC head for top end power. The TII 2.2L pushed my 85 konvertible to over 120 and still climbing when my son took it up to Northern VA and someone tried to cut him off at the "mixing bowl" interchange. DC traffic is a bear, years ago I had a guy in an Olds Vista Cruiser try to screw with me in my 66 Shelby GT350. He had cut me off trying to change lanes with my signal on, a mile or so later I was able to return the favor. We were going West on US 50 coming into DC, I had to make a right turn to get to my aunt and uncle's house. I was in the right lane which ends right where I had to turn. Clown is on my back bumper not realizing I am driving an only slightly detuned road race car. Corner comes, I jab the brakes, downshift to 2nd from 4th (we are going 60-65 mph) and as I get to the corner, yank the wheel, slide into the uphill turn and nail the throttle. As I look back in my mirror I see Vista Cruiser plow head on into the concrete retaining wall. BTW there are numerous "Right lane ends at xxx street" signs and I am reasonably sure he probably knew that but his little bit of road rage cost him.

Well, I haven't really done much at all to the konvertible since the last post on the seat control change. Between someone out west sending storms this way and trying to finish scrapping a couple of old John Deere 110 tractors so I can move the car over to that side of the garage I haven't been able to do much, however today I did get another part of the long term plan implemented. Several years ago, I bought what was advertised as an SRT4 head, turbo and intake along with the parts to install it on a 2.5L short block. Since the head is a DOHC 16 valve one, it requires different pistons, preferably forged. Everything I was even finding were hypereutectic not forged. Yesterday someone on Turbododge.com advertised a set of Venolia pistons for a 2.5L 16 valve conversion along with a set of full floating rods and there are rings, but he isn't sure they are the right ones for the pistons, cost $500 + shipping. Shipping was $23, so for $523 I now have the needed pistons. Since the head appears to be from a 2001 Stratus or Cirrus 2.4L, probably non-turbo, I caught my favorite junkyard owner on FB this evening. Last time I was over there, he had a turbo PT Cruiser that had an underhood fire, probably minor as the intake manifold (plastic) looked ok. I asked about getting the top end off it and he said remind him tomorrow so he can check on it or another 2.4L turbo engine. If he ends up just dropping it out, I may just go pick up the whole powertrain.

1987 351 non-HO and 300 received EFI systems. 1988 351 HO (if they still were offered) and 460s went to EFI.

Ok, since it seems to be working now hopefully all is good. I found one I had, will look later as I may have another. This is a later one but might work. PN on it is F2TB-10D840-AA and has 7 pins, one of which is smaller.

Unfortunately, an EEC-IV needs a piggyback tuner like a Moates Quarterhorse or TwEECer. They can't be reflashed which is why there are a gazillion different 1985/86 5.0L EECs. Since he is going back to Europe, maybe I can ask him to look for a dial glass for my old Telefunken console HiFi.

Great! He and I have chatted on Facebook and even spoken on the phone.

Angelo, on the plugs, I have a pretty good assortment of Ford harness plugs so I may have what you need.

Same on Darth, the ACCS (Air Conditioner Clutch Switch) has an input to the ECU to tell it to raise the rpm for the compressor load. It may do just that, add enough air to compensate. GM and Chrysler actually have the ECU control the AC compressor relay. On both it keeps the compressor off on start until the idle settles a bit, just a few seconds. I know on the Chrysler systems it will kill the compressor at WOT, but all I have really delved into are the 4 cyl turbocharged engines.

Jim, Darth did, first shut off the AC compressor, then advanced the timing and possibly raised the idle. I was caught in Portsmouth VA trying to get back through the downtown tunnel in Aug with temps probably near 100° and RH in the 90s. I needed to make a left across 2 lanes without benefit of a signal and there was a steady stream coming the other way. The signal a block down from where I was turning was giving occasional openings, but there were probably 10 ahead of me. I ended up when nothing was moving putting the transmission in N so I could raise the rpm a bit.

Geee, I think I would go assist to this symposium, guys, even just to learn what is a TV cable. I suspect it’s not in order to watch Maynard G. Krebs episodes while driving. Well, first there are two different types of TV cable a pull style and a push style (sort of like the pushmepullyou from Dr. Dolittle). The pull style is the more normal and can be either an external or internal connection at the transmission end. Manufacturers found that making numerous changes of direction to clear things got to be a pain. For years Chrysler Torqueflites had a system of three rods and two bellcranks to get from the carburetor to the throttle lever on the transmission. With the advent of FWD the throttle lever on the transmission was usually in a completely wrong position for a rod system so a nice cable, about the size of a bicycle brake cable was used. GM went from a rod system on the older Hydramatics to a vacuum modulator and a solenoid for WOT downshifts, then in the late 70s, reversed that on the THM200 with a TV cable. Ford also went to vacuum modulators starting in 1961 but used a downshift lever that was actuated at WOT either by a rod or cable depending on vehicle and engine. Borg-Warner on their automatics (Ford FMX is a Borg-Warner design) used a push cable on AMC products, pull cables on others, vacuum modulators with an integral solenoid for downshifts on others. A TV cable, whether external or internal allows the engineer a lot more flexibility in design as the arc of the throttle motion and the arc of the transmission lever are all that is needed to match one to the other. My turbo Chrysler uses a drum style connection for the accelerator cable, but a slot for the TV cable, so if the TV cable jams in the extended position, it will not prevent the throttle from closing. The slot is arc shaped and positioned so the cable is not bent too much in it's travel. On the transmission end, it attaches to a lever on the TV shaft. This is what it looks like:

Mat, if you are interested in some of that, I have things I have dug up on a lot of transmissions. The real interesting ones are Mercedes-Benz units, all the ones I used to work on have reaction valves on the anchor end of the bands. These serve as hydraulic feedback to the valves applying or releasing the band and it's associated clutch. The idea is to provide a smooth, yet solid transfer from one holding device to another. To say the valve bodies on these are complex is an understatement. The other end of this is the Detroit Gear 3 speed that Studebaker used and after the fire in the Hydra-Matic plant in 1953 Hudson used them also. Jaguar used them on the salons and XK 120,140, and 150 models. Valve body was extremely simple as the shifts were controlled by a flyweight governor that a throttle input changed the spring tension on. This moved a shift valve to control the original versions shift from intermediate to direct and on the later Jaguar models from low to intermediate to direct. There was a tiny plunger that received pressure in direct to provide the needed hysteresis to prevent hunting. I also believe Mercedes used it before developing their own units.

I had an attractive helper when I did Darth's.

Mat, those of us who are old enough to (a) remember and (b) have worked on the old GM Hydra-Matics are pretty familiar with the mechanical throttle linkage systems and fine tuning of them. The single coupling 4 speed had a 2-3 shift with a fine line between jerk and slip, and at best it was rough since it was a double shift, front unit downshifted while the rear unit upshifted. When they went to the dual coupling, since the front unit clutch was replaced with a controlled coupling the tuning became a little easier as a sprag clutch replaced the band in D4 or D depending on the car line so the downshift on the front unit simply involved dumping the controlled coupling while the rear unit did the band to clutch upshift. In 1961 in an effort to simplify and reduce cost along with the need for a more compact transmission for the F85, GM came out with the Roto-Hydramatic, a 3 speed unit called a 3 speed 4 stage. First gear, first stage was a controlled coupling with a small stator that was connected to the output shaft. It provided a minimal torque converter effect, which was partially cancelled by the reaction force pushing the wrong way on the output shaft. First speed second stage was coupling acting as a clutch driving the gearset. Second gear was a purely mechanical through the gear train with no coupling or converter function as it was drained. Between that and the jump from first to second ratio (like skipping 1-3 in a 4 speed) that shift was extremely sensitive to TV linkage adjustment.

Yes, the secret is to give the computer time to learn where it needs to be rather than trying to force it there. Sort of like leading a horse to water, and letting it decide if it's thirsty. Glad it's working out! The other item, rpm at start, I would imagine the initial higher rpm even on a hot start has to do with emissions, more air = leaner mixture to clear the extra starting volume of fuel. Just like a lot of carbureted engines need a bit of throttle on a hot restart.

I will almost be willing to bet it will settle out like Darth did. I had the same issue, super lean during warm up to the point if I put the transmission in gear I could stall the engine. After a few days it settled on a slightly richer starting mixture.

Looks good! The EEC "learns" the optimum duty cycle for the injectors from where it goes once the O2 sensors come on and start controlling. This is also why an OBD-II vehicle has to be run through a drive cycle that is very specific before in can be emission tested. This is also why I was telling you to drive BB a bit before making changes again.

What Adam told me on Darth, once you reflash the EEC, you need to disconnect the EEC KAPWR, this can be done on Darth by pulling fuse #9 in my underhood fuse box. This is a 30 amp fuse as it feeds all of the EEC system. That is a lot easier than disconnecting the battery. We discovered this after I was having issues getting changes to actually effect the system, and had disconnected the battery for another reason and found that after a few restarts, everything settled down. On the lean on startup, I have the same issue with Darth after reflashing and lobotomizing the EEC, engine will go extremely lean shortly after starting until the O2 sensors come on-line and begin controlling the mixture.

The reason I went that way, the OBD-II system has two modes on EVAP control, one is a normal purge valve, but in order to meet Federal and CA emission standards it has to run a test to confirm system integrity. This is done by pulling a vacuum on the EVAP system, many newer vehicles actually have a vacuum pump, others just use manifold vacuum to do this. This is normal for under 8500 GVW vehicles. Over 8500 GVW vehicles are allowed a non-sealed system, which is what I used on Darth. I started with the 1990 EVAP system, and extended the line on the frame where it goes past the right side of the cab (needed 35" more). In the front I used the two EVAP canisters from the 1990 F250 and initially used the CANP valve and lines from it. Both tanks have a double nipple valve in the top, one side going to a vent cap like the axle vents use and the other going to the EVAP piping. After finding I could not satisfy the EEC as far as using a CANP system due to the inability to pass the system integrity test I was faced with 4 options (1) live with a permanent check engine light, (2) disable the CEL in the software, (3) figure out a way to "cheat" the system into thinking it was sealed, (4) get and install a VMV and use it the way it was designed. I did a functional test of the last option with a 1995 Lincoln Continental VMV and after it proved out, found and ordered a correct VMV for a 1996 CA Spec 460. Once I get the new engine in, I will copy the needed parameters from an FEZ3 EEC into the tune on Darth.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. I had a bit of trial and error with Darth and there is still the need once the new engine is installed to finalize my VMV settings. I could have just left the EVAP system as an open system, but wanted it working since ethanol gas and extremely damp air mix too well and can really do a number on tanks and pumps.

I guess it beats a smoking bullet and a speeding gun.

Gary, the EEC-V and the EEC-IV 1987 up treat whatever the TPS voltage is a startup as closed throttle. The early EEC-IV (1985-86 302) actually needed the idle screw to be used to bring the TPS voltage in spec, too high on those would actuate the EGR solenoids and lead to some very strange surging. Are you using the aftermarket throttle body or the factory one? In either case, I would check what the closed throttle TPS voltage is, and if it is adjustable either by reducing the throttle opening or if possible moving the TPS pot in the direction of open throttle. We had a 1990 Lincoln Town Car with the last year (for Lincoln) 302 SEFI engine. Idle setting on it was an issue and there was a TSB that called out a spacer under the IAC with two small needle valve screws to allow air bypass so idle and TPS could be brought into tolerance.

Gary, could it be due to the cam you are running? Remember Darth still has a well worn, rather low compression 460 with a stock 1986 cam.

I have been trying to get something I could test the refrigeration system in the Flex console with. Dug out an old Black & Decker jump box/air compressor combo I have had for years. Cleaned it off, battery showed 1/2 charge on the lights when the test button was pushed in, compressor ran so I decided to see if it would charge up. It did and today I connected it to the compressor wiring and tried it, condenser fan (a computer fan) ran and after a bit I started hearing the normal sounds a small refrigerator's piping makes. I checked the air discharge from the fan and was reading 85-87° F. I let it run for a while and opened the well, it was nicely cold in there. The unit is fused at 15amps so I will do what the Flex does, use an ignition on relay for power.

That looks like a 4 speed toploader from the pictures, but I don't recall seeing shift linkage like that. Mine was in a 1966 Mustang and the linkage was rods with threaded sections for adjustment. It may be an overdrive version for a truck, similar the the SROD.