Gary Lewis

Those that knock the Swiss cheese frame don't have an understanding of physics. A C-channel's strength comes from the top and bottom flanges, not the web. Essentially all the web does is to keep the flanges apart at the specified distance. And the Swiss cheese frames do a good job of that. If you don't believe me, go look at old bridges. They were made of of fabricated C or I sections with a lattice-work of pieces between to keep the flanges at the specified distance. And, they are still standing decades later. Or, go talk to Diesel Brad on FTE. He has a "pulling truck" with a big bad diesel in it and it has a Swiss cheese frame. Last I talked to him it was just fine after many, many "pulls". And if you want to see what a Swiss cheese frame looks like, take a peek on Dad's Truck Build thread. So don't be afraid of those frames.

Bill - That would explain why I didn't see the differences as I have the unicorn '96 CA 460 MAF box that Mark/Dyn Blin got me - awa many other CA-spec things. So I've been looking at that in comparison to Huck's '90 box and the lid was the difference. Dusty - I do want to retain a factory appearance, so do want the air box. That'll be a search in the future - when I get to that point. But thanks for the suggestion. Steve - On the ECU's location, for Dad's truck I had planned on placing it under the seat where the EEC-III one was in '82 as I used an '82 cab to replace the badly-rusted one. But, that's a decision to make way down the road as 'tween now and then I'm going to be doing Big Blue with EEC-V and with everyone's help here may figure out out to get it in behind the kick panel. Having said that, I don't want to be cutting or banging on Dad's new paint, so the under-the-seat option may be the way to go. We shall see.

Thanks, David. I'd done the CAD work for my own benefit so thought I should share them in case it would help others. And taking the measurements seemed a natural thing to do. But, I wonder if I should condense this thread into a web page when the project is done?Having said that, one thing I haven't said and probably should is that drilling those holes in the top of the frame rail would be a problem if the cab is on the truck. But it can be done w/o fully removing the cab. I have a Ridgid Jobmax right angle drill and I was able to get in between the rails with a countersink to clean up the bottom of the holes with it. So, you should be able to drill the holes with it if you have a short bit. And, I've done it with a right angle air drill and a short bit. But, even if you do get the holes drilled you can't get the old bolts out nor new bolts in with the cab in place. So there are at least two solutions there: Leave the old bolts and put a nut on the bottom of them so they don't rattle. And put the new bolts in from the bottom with nuts on top. However, you'll have to have very short bolts or they'll hit the cab. Lift the cab. If you get lucky you can pull the four bolts holding the cab on w/o breaking one of them and then raise the cab about 4". The wiring will follow, but you might have to remove any linkage to the transmission or clutch. And, watch the brake lines to see that they aren't going to kink. But I was able to do this on Dad's truck to install the ZF5.

You know, a cousin that was 4 or 5 years older than me told me soon after he retired, and a few years before I did, that he was so busy in retirement that he couldn't figure out how he got anything done when working. And now I fully understand. We usually get up around 6 and drink coffee and "compute" until around 9. Gotta catch up on the news, email, Facebook, etc don't we? Then off to the shop until 10:30 when I'm back for a break. Then lunch. Then a mid-afternoon break. Then in at 5, shower, watch the news & Wheel, and then relax for the evening. So, where would I fit work in????

I drink coffee, as I'm doing now, and otherwise hang out with my bride of almost 50 years. I am quite active in our church. And I have a small web site that gets a bit of attention here and there. Oh wait! You were being facetious!

I've not seen the 454's intake. But I agree that there's little science in the 460's lower plenum. And the upper looks like a real bottle neck. I think I'll do a little porting/smoothing/blending/rounding as I get them ready to go on Big Blue's engine. Which I hope will be soon.

Older 4R70W TCs (around '98-05 IIRC) were known to balloon, but mainly in police Crown Vics that had higher shift points, or in other Panthers that were driven hard (allowed to upshift at WOT). The TC was redesigned to eliminate the problem. I've never heard of an E4OD TC ballooning, and I don't think a stock flexplate could stop it anyway. AFAIK, the TC pilot is never supposed to bottom in the crank - it always floats there. So I don't see the lack of material near it as a problem. As long as it's centered before the flexplate nuts are tightened, it should be fine. If it's offcenter, I think there would be an obvious vibration at idle, and possibly frothy ATF on the dipstick. https://supermotors.net/getfile/202695/thumbnail/torqueconverter00.jpg I don't see how they could, unless the washers were MASSIVE in every dimension, and the bolts cranked to the point of stretching. But I don't think the difference would ever be appreciable. The only time the frame flanges are ever really stressed across those holes is in a T-bone collision. That's why the flanges are so narrow to begin with. Normally, the stress is in the (tall) frame web. I assume he means the ones with eye bolts to lift the transmission. If so: the nut is visible in the passenger-side pic. Yes, those are lifting eyes with nuts on the bottom. I'd purchased them when I thought I was going to make a dolly for the engine and wanted to be able to lift it with them. Shipped the engine to Tim instead. On the nuts, bolts, and washers, thanks for the thoughts. Now, to think about the near future for Dad's truck. Rest! My goal for this spring has been to get it on all fours with steering and the engine, tranny, and t-case in. That way I can roll it onto the trailer and show it in the fall. And we are almost there. Here's what I need to do to get there, I think: Torque the t-case/tranny bolts as they are just snugged up to let the Ultra Black set up Torque the engine mount/frame nuts Powder coat another tranny mount/crossmember nut and install those and torque them Touch up all the fasteners installed recently Lube the body mounts, lower the cab, and snug up the bolts Roll the truck to the other end of the shop to await its turn again As for what I'll be doing twixt now and Dad's truck's next turn, it's Big Blue's turn. Recently I've noticed that the clunk in the front end has gotten worse and the steering has gotten less precise, so I fear the frame is cracked. And, I've smelled oil burning one too many times, so it is time to pull the engine and replace the seals - as well as a few other things, like heads, pan, intake(s), exhaust, fuel delivery, spark system, valve covers, etc. Plus, there's a ZF5 sitting in the corner taking up space, so it needs a turn to play. In other words, a new/different project. But this one won't include media blasting and powder coating everything. So, hopefully it'll go a bit faster.

Now let's talk about crossmembers. The E4OD uses a crossmember that is very different than any used in the Bullnose trucks in that it mounts in the normal fashion on the left, meaning it rests on the bottom flange of the frame and has a gusset up to the top flange, but it actually goes outside of the frame on the right. Here's a pic of the right end of mine installed:But the question becomes how to determine where to put the crossmember. I wrestled with that for quite a while today as the frame rails aren't parallel and the crossmember has a dog-leg in it, so measuring just didn't work. Finally I decided that I'd position it so that the studs on the transmission's mount were centered in the slots on the crossmember, and that worked. In fact, there was an existing hole on the bottom rail of Dad's truck's left frame rail that was perfectly located for the bottom bolt. So I put a alignment pin in there and checked the right side - and it was about right as well. So I clamped the crossmember in place and marked all of the holes.Then I drilled the holes and test-fit the crossmember - perfect. And, thinking that the shiny metal would make it easier for you to see where the holes are, here's a pic of the left side. And, here's a bit of explanation:The "Original for C6" holes were what the truck came with, and probably should have just been marked "Original" since all of the transmission crossmembers used them.The "ZF5 using C6 gussets" holes were ones I drilled to install a ZF5 using, as it says, the gussets that were used with the C6 crossmember. But there were different gussets for the ZF5 that allow using the original crossmember and the ZF5 gussets w/o drilling new holes. But I didn't know that at the time. The E4OD crossmember has its own gusset and it has a bit of a twist to it. So while the bottom mounting hole is 8 11/16" back of the original bottom hole, the top holes are only 7 1/2" back of the original holes.As for the right side, the top hole of the three is 9 13/16" back of the center of the original front hole. And you find its height by using a floor jack or C-clamp to hold it up against the bottom of the frame rail. Here are the three holes on the right hand side:

Let's re-open this thread in order to capture some details about installing an E4OD behind an M-block. With the help of Steve/FoxFord33 we took copious measurements from the 460 on the stand and the 400 in Dad's truck. Then we drew what we'd seen up in CAD and discovered that an E4OD is a perfect fit behind an M-block, unlike the ZF5.The drawing on the left below is of the 460, and you can see the crank (red), the flexplate with ring gear (orange), and the torque converter (green). Then the drawing on the right introduces the 400's crank and flexplate, both of which are blue. And one thing to note is that the two flexplates and ring gears are essentially in the same place, although the 400's is .006" further forward than the 460's. Big deal. That says that the torque converter will bolt up perfectly to the 400's flexplate. And that either the M-block starter or a starter for a 460 with an auto tranny will work. Another thing to notice is that the pilot of the torque converter does go into the 400's crank, although only .332" as opposed to the .862" it engages the 460's crank. But according to Dale, of B&I Torque Converters in OKC, the .332" is quite adequate. All that is needed is to center the torque converter, and that will do it. Last, note that the torque converter doesn't butt up against the end of the crank when bolted to a 400 like it does on a 460. According to Dale, some E4OD torque converters have bulged under high pressure, and w/o support there on the 400 there could be a problem. Fortunately the torque converter they built for me has a "billet back" and he was sure that it will have no problems even though it won't touch the crank. But, had I not gone for the HD converter with the billet back he thought there might be a problem.

It depends on what you get. There were probably 4 different systems. But there's a way to make any of them single-tank systems by bypassing the valve. And, if the truck has electric fuel pumps you get an interesting security feature. With the valve gone if you flip the switch on the dash to the other tank the fuel pump won't run. And who would think to flip the switch down by the air conditioning controls to get it to run?

I'm glad you did mention it! I would have hated to have the question come up later and not know if it was going to bite me. Glass floor! Good idea! My brother said something similar - that it is going to be a shame to bury that engine under the EFI stuff. So we talked a bit about adding a stand-alone controller for the tranny and staying with a carb and that dual-snorkel air cleaner. Edit: I missed the question. Which holes?

The switching valves changed quite a bit through the Bullnose years, and while some are worse than others, none are all that good. A simple single tank is the easiest to maintain. As for what they can do, as Ray Cecil. His valve was pulling from one tank and returning to the other. Boy, was he getting bad MPG. We wound up taking the valve out of the equation and he ran on one tank. I'll bet his uncle, who has the truck, is still running on one tank.

Bummer! Hope they'll send you another one. But, the thing didn't seem very fragile, so it is hard to imagine how someone broke it.

In my opinion, dual tanks are really only useful if you travel long distances and have a thirsty engine. My wife and I drove Dad's truck with a load of furniture from Oklahoma to Pennsylvania and back using only one tank, and it worked out fine. We could do ~200 miles/tank, and by then we were happy to get out and take a break. The down side of dual tanks is the maintenance. The switching valves are notorious for problems and are expensive to replace - if you can find them. To me, the best approach is to go with either a Bronco rear tank, which is 33 gallons, or the 38 gallon replacement Bronco tank. You now have essentially the same capacity as if you had two 19 gallon tanks, but no switching valve. However, there is a downside to this approach - you can't put the spare under the back of the truck, so it'll have to go in the bed.

While all the pieces were supposedly "Nutmeg", even originally they didn't exactly match. And, over time each type of plastic has changed even more, whether from the sun or the type of material of which they are made. Notice the softer vinyl of the seat is different than the harder vinyl of the dash. And the hard plastic of the dash is yet another color.

Well, today this happened today: Yep, the crossmember is in place as is the BW1356 transfer case. Here's another view: Along the way I took lots of pics and made many notes regarding where the holes went in the frame. I think I'll revive the E4OD For Dad's Truck thread to get into the nitty gritty detail that have been uncovered in the last few days, including: Several drawings of the crankshafts, flexplates, and the torque converter as well as dimensions The discussion about the possibility of the torque converter bulging/ballooning under pressure that we had today Pics and dimensions for where I drilled the holes in the frame to accommodate the E4OD's massive length Does that seem like a reasonable approach? Use the E4OD thread for the detail? And then summarize it in a page on the website? But, since we talked about the length of the E4OD in this thread, here's a shot of the left side frame showing all the holes in it. As you can see, the E4OD holes are 7 1/2" behind the original holes, and the ZF5 holes are 1 1/2" behind the original holes - assuming you use the C6 gussets. But, with the ZF5 gussets you can use the original holes. Also, I'm thinking about placing 1/2" G8 bolts with washers top & bottom in the unused holes to put some strength back in the top and bottom flanges of the frame. Obviously that's not as strong as w/o the holes, but is better than nothing. Thoughts?

Here they are. And I forced them to 66% of the screen width so they are easier to see. But, these are low res pics, so if you want higher res then send them to me via email.

Paul - That bed liner looks great! It covers and yet matches. Well done. And if you are looking for a road trip this autumn, the Garagemahal Ford Truck Show & Swap Meet will be on September 21st in Skiatook, OK. Several on this forum are planning to be here, so please plan to come! We'd like to see your truck. On the pics, do you want me to rotate them for you? You can either email them to me or I can rotate the ones in your post. Your call.

Interior colors are here: Specifications/Interior Paint. And on the Ford's Color Names tab you'll see this. Note that E1TZ 1004104 is a visor and "A3T" is Nutmeg.

Ok Houston, there is no problem! I talked to the owner, Dale, of B&I Torque Converters in OKC, who are the ones that built this unit. He said that my unit (TF59 LS HD) has a billet back and welded turbine and impellor. And with the billet back there's no chance that it is going to expand. (And, by the way, the "LS" means "low stall", which is exactly what he'd recommend for this application.) However, had I not opted for the "HD", which gets the billet back, then there could have been a problem with ballooning. So, Bill, you were right once again. Also, I asked him about the 3/8" of pilot engagement with the crank on the 400 and he said that's quite adequate to center it. Bottom Line: No worries!

Glad you got it sorted, but how'd you do it? Maybe you learned something the rest of us need to know? On the restore vs modify issue, I think there are places for both. But I currently don't have a truck that i wish to "restore". Instead, I'd rather "improve".

Meaning a better upper and/or lower plenum? Larger throttle body? Different intake plumbing?

Yes, Bill, you were right. And I was wrong. Boy, was I wrong! Re the "solid piece around the TC center", are you talking about the lack of anything supporting the front of the TC? You are thinking it might balloon forward since it doesn't butt up against the 460's crank, like shown in the snag below? I could machine a sleeve that would be a slip fit over the hub and just be contained by the crank on the front and TC on the rear and provide some extra strength to the hub. But, do you really think it is going to expand enough to cause problems? At this point I'm loathe to do that as I feel like I'm "there". But, if it is ever to be done now would be the time. I think I'll call the people that built the torque converter and get their thoughts, but would like yours as well.

There's no way I know of to rotate a pic while uploading. Nabble, our forum host, doesn't recognize the orientation info in the metadata - pretty much like most other forums. So you have to open it in a photo editor and then save it as most photo editors have the smarts to recognize and change the orientation. Anyway, I see the problem with the new style bumper, but have no clue how to resolve it. Hopefully someone will as those bumpers are much more available than ones for our trucks.

Yes, the 2nd pic is close to mine, although it is angular and not rounded. And the first one is what I've seen for later trucks. I've not been able to find one for the Bullnose trucks new, and few of the used ones for sale. They appear to be sought after. And, for what it is worth, we have the installation instruction on the Warn Winch Bumper tab here: http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/bumpers.html.