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Fixing Eddie

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Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

On the alternator, it was just the rear needle bearing that was growling? And lubing it solved it? Wow! I'd have bet the needles were bad. Hope it holds for you.

As for the carb, it seems like you got the idle problem resolved. By backing out the idle stop screw, which allowed the throttle blades to close some you lowered the RPM. And by adjusting the two screws in the front, which adjust the air/fuel mix, in a bit you got it to idle better and take the throttle better.

But it still won't run when you drop it in D or R until it is warm. And that's surely because you need a bit more choke. Make note of where the index is sitting on the black choke housing, and then loosen the three screws that hold it onto the carb. Then turn it two notches in the direction that closes the choke plate, which I think is clockwise - but I could be wrong. Snug the screws up and test that.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

firefire

Re: Fixing Eddie

Thanks Gary for your input. It was a little to much to call the noise from the alternator growling

More like a low whining , a dry bearing. The needles were fine. Thanks for advice about choke. Mine is another version that you cant turn like you described.This evening I tried to check the function of the choke. Pressed the gas pedal 2 times to the floor. Choke blade closed, green cam turned to high idle. But the idle was low. Engine stopped.

Next photo is engine stopped in resting position. Note distance from trottle kicker to gas mechanism.

Then pressed gas pedal and choke closed. Distance to throttle kicker increased, means more gas.Engine runs poorly around 1000 rpms and stopps.

Then I by hand pushes the gas all the way to the end. Kick down. Starts engine and suddenly the throttle kicker comes into action

Air condition off. Higher idle.

After a while the choke opens up a little. Idle gets a little lower. Runs in D.

After a minute kicker retracts more and engine runs at idle

And in D.

Wonder if I didnt depress the gas pedal good enough first time I tried. There is a thick carpet and a rubber mat under the gas pedal. And I pressed it in only by hand. Have to repeat the test tomorrow.After a warm weekend its back to refrigerator temperaturs outdoors again.

Stein.
1986 Bronco Eddie Bauer, 5,8L, 3 speed Autom.Tr
1996 F350 , 7,3L Powerstroke, 4wd, 5 speed Man. Tr.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

I'm confused. Your truck should have the Holley 4180-C and it should have an adjustable choke. However, it probably has rivets in place of the screws that have to be drilled out and then screws put in place of the rivets.

A very thorough pair of instruction documents are available on this page: Documentation/Fuel Systems/Carburetors, Chokes, & EFI/Holley 4180-C and then the Ford Service Manuals tab. They talk about adjusting the choke pull-down, which opens the choke up with vacuum, and the fast idle cam but not the choke itself as that was a no-no for emissions purposes. But it seems to me that yours needs to be adjusted. However, lets see what others have to say.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

I can definitely see that at least the top screw on his 4180 cap retainer has been replaced.

Superimposed over the black line....

Zoom in on the left side and you can see it is a slotted cheese head or pan head screw and not the conical nub left after the breakaway tamper-proof screw is installed at the factory.

With these carbs there is a little nub on the mating surface of the choke coil that will only allow it to turn a few degrees.
It's easy enough to file that locating nub down, but first make a mark across the scales so you can have that as a baseline.
Then go ahead and completely remove the three screws and the heating element/cap.

While it is removed you can see the pulloff inside.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

Good eye, Jim. I missed that, but you are right. I can even see the slot.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

Gary Lewis wrote

Even eye can see the slot....

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

firefire

Re: Fixing Eddie

Hi. You are right about the choke have being opened previously.

First time not by me, but I looked in there at Christmas when I overhauled the carberator. The choke seems to work as it shall, closing and turning the fast idle cam in position when I press the gas pedal to the floor. But it doesnt idle fast when I start it. I have probably turned the fast idle screw to far out when I tried to close the throttle blades.When engine runs there is 14,4V on the electric assist on the choke termostat. I will look at it tomorrow. Today I tried the throttle kicker version again. Sort of false choke. I press the gas arm all the way to maximum gas once before starting. Then the throttle kicker comes into action. Engine runs at around 1200 rpm. After maybe 2 minutes the throttle kicker retracts and the engine runs at normal idle.

But what triggers the throttle kicker

Stein.
1986 Bronco Eddie Bauer, 5,8L, 3 speed Autom.Tr
1996 F350 , 7,3L Powerstroke, 4wd, 5 speed Man. Tr.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

If it is like the one that came on my 4180-c it is just a simple dashpot.
A diaphragm inside pulls the pin out, and only bleeds off slowly.
This is more to prevent the throttle plate from slamming shut.

But my truck did not come with Air Conditioning or Speed Control so each of these applications might call for different components.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

The 1986 EVTM (Documentation/Electrical/EVTM/1986 EVTM/Carburetor Circuits) has info on this, but it is CONFUSING! The first page, shown below, says it is for Broncos sold in Canada. The second page says it is for 5.8L engines in F150s and F250s sold in the 49 states. But doesn't include Broncos.

So your question of "what triggers the throttle kicker" is hard to answer. So let's first make sure we are talking about the same piece of gear. There are two solenoids, the Throttle Position Solenoid, which has one wire to it and that wire is black, and the Decel Throttle Kicker Solenoid, which has red/yellow and a tan/white wires to it. Which one(s) do you have? And which one are you asking about?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

firefire

Re: Fixing Eddie

Hi. Gary. This is the decel throttle kicker. Jim is right. His description of the TK function is correct. The TK is activated by vacuum at a certain level when driving/ cruising. I guess that this vacuum level happened when I tried to start the cold engine.Function 2: When the Ac compressor runs it sends 12v to an electrically controlled vacuum valve, which then activates the TK to raise rpm.
Today I checked the fast idle screw. I had backed it out to much earlier. Therefore no extra throttle/ gas when the choke engaged. Turned it in a little and engine starts easily. Around 1200 - 1400 rpm. May try to take it down a little. Dont like high rpm with cold engine. Outdoors its still refrigerator temperatures.

Stein.
1986 Bronco Eddie Bauer, 5,8L, 3 speed Autom.Tr
1996 F350 , 7,3L Powerstroke, 4wd, 5 speed Man. Tr.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

Ok, seems like you are getting a handle on it.

As for the temps, what do you expect waaaaaaay up there?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

firefire

Re: Fixing Eddie

Hi again. At last we are in for better weather this week. No snow or rain. Around 9`C at daytime and some SUN :). In the last days I have tried some more timing and carburator work. First I found TDC (, at compression). Spark plug hole test. Corresponded with timing mark, 0 tdc. Used a wrench to turn engine to 10BTDC mark.

Took top off distributor. Rotor points at contact for cylinder 1. Disconnects vacuum advance from distributor. Adjusted idle speed needles till I got -17 HG . After connecting everything back on again engine would back fire. Twisted distributor to more advanced, and engine ran better. Even adjusted the accelerator pump to squirt earlier.
On a testdrive engine stopped three times when driving at very low speed.Started right up afterwards. Its no fuel delivery problem. So today I loaned a test light at work. Now I turned the distributor to ignite at 8BTDC. At 750 rpm I got -17 hg. vacuum in carburator. Checked with light, 8BTDC ok. Tried Static timing, got blinking at TDC. When I connect vacuum advance to distributor, RPM increases up to 850. Then I found something interesting. Removed top of distributor. With vacuum pump vacuum advance starts moving at -1HG and reaches max movement at -5HG. Checked the hose for the vacuum advance. From the carburator I got -8HG at idle and -15 HG at max when rising RPMs. That suggests that vacuum advance is always at max ? With vacuum advance connected I tested ignition again with the light. Blinking constantly at 30BTDC regardless off RPMs. What do you experts think ?

Stein.
1986 Bronco Eddie Bauer, 5,8L, 3 speed Autom.Tr
1996 F350 , 7,3L Powerstroke, 4wd, 5 speed Man. Tr.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

That’s a strange vacuum advance unit. I would expect it to come in between 5 and 10 and be all in between 15 and 20. But this one could easily cause pinging if not detonation with that much advance.

Unless I’m missing something I think you need to replace it. And I’d use something like an adjustable one from Crane Cams.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

In reply to this post by firefire

Does your vacuum diagram not show a thermal vacuum switch selecting between full manifold vacuum and (V-REST) a vacuum restriction usually in the form of a tiny colored plastic splice or elbow?

My truck counts on that restriction to limit vacuum at idle and slow response to closed throttle.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

Jim - Does your vacuum advance work like his on such small amounts of vacuum?

Even with a restriction after a bit of time you'll get the full vacuum. In my class on parallel systems where we modeled electrical systems in pneumatics we learned that a restriction is the equivalent to a resistor. So unless there's a vacuum leak on the other side of the restriction causing the equivalent of a current, eventually the vacuum on either side of the restriction will be equal.

So, is there a controlled vacuum leak?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

I can't confirm.
My original advance unit is probably 30 ,years gone.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

Ok.

So we need to determine if the original vacuum system is intact, or if he's going to have to go back to a simple system w/o the thermal switch and restrictions. Right?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

firefire

Re: Fixing Eddie

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Hi. Here is a picture of the diagram. Take a look.

I cant see anything connected to the vacuum line.
Do you think the amount of vacuum from the carberator is normal ?

Stein.
1986 Bronco Eddie Bauer, 5,8L, 3 speed Autom.Tr
1996 F350 , 7,3L Powerstroke, 4wd, 5 speed Man. Tr.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Fixing Eddie

Administrator

No.
Your advance seems to use timed vacuum, directly from the carburetor port.

It is impossible for me to know all the variants.

So we need to understand why your distributor sees so much vacuum.(or why it is pulling in so much timing)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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