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Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

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Gary Lewis

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

Actually, what I've read is that the feedback carbs do quite well w/o the ECU. Apparently the adjustment range is very small. Instead, I think it may be a timing problem.

Anyway, hope it works when you try it.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Didn't have much time to drive it yesterday after "repairs". Had to go into work for 8 hours...

From the little I could do it did seem better. May be a placebo effect though. Will test more over lunch break.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

She does run better... but I am doubting the fuel economy. Also now has a code for the ECT sensor being out of range... maybe thinks it's cold and dumping too much fuel?

Sounds like I need to clean the ECU connector again... I didn't really do that last time, just unplug and replug. Unless for some bizzare reason the detected TPS issue previously was masking an ECT issue?

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Gary Lewis

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

I'm not sure I understand where the fuel economy bit came from. But I would clean the connector.

As for the ECT, I've heard that fixing one thing on those shows up others. I don't know why as you'd think they'd all be listed, but I've heard that doesn't always happen.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Did some checks this weekend. ECT under load (voltage measurement at sensor when plugged in) measures bang-on at cold and operating temps. Which points to either an intermittent issue I didn't happen to catch, or a faulty ECU. Will clear codes and see if the code comes back.

Performance is coming and going... better to a point. Fuel economy is 13mpg mixed driving (although I suspect it's worse since I don't think I got a full fill... or the new sending unit I installed is inconsistent?).

I haven't looked into the driveline (U joints, etc)... although if I was having drag there (bad bearings) I'd hear it. Likewise, I think I just had a ball joint start to fail (clunk when braking) so I have more suspension work in the future (not to mention the 100% dead shocks I need to replace). And that's just mechanical stuff... Point being I have plenty to do here.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Gary Lewis

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

A clunk when braking can easily be the radius arm bushing, which is right under the driver or passenger depending on which one.

With performance coming and going it does sound like either bad wiring or ECU. Unless the transmission is doing something funky.

How badly do you want to maintain the original "system"?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

I'd prefer to keep it stock, mainly for financial reasons. Modification is a rabbit hole that I can't afford to go down at this time.

Electrically I'm not quite done. Still need to clean the ECU connector (since that has been suspect).

I haven't looked at anything mechanical (which does include verifying the timing mark on the balancer). I want to (and probably should), if nothing else to see what shape the engine's in so I know what I'm working with. However, the next few weeks I'm booked on work trips (leaving town in a couple hours) so I won't be able to work on it much besides weekends.

The comment on the ball joints is based on prior experience with my rangers (both TIB)... the sort of feeling I'm getting matched what was lower ball joint play in the case of said rangers. The radius arm bushings are old but last I checked were still in surprisingly good shape. The Ball joints are original lubed for life units, which to me, after 35+ years is suspect. A good shakedown test will reveal the source of play.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Gary Lewis

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

I used to travel a lot for work, so understand. Have a safe trip.

The modification thing isn't too expensive - if you can find the right parts from a salvage. Pretty sure the ECU wiring will be stand alone, like there's a coolant temp sensor that goes to the ECU but another that goes to the gauge. So you can convert w/o causing problems.

Anyway, hope you can get the stock system working properly.

As for the ball joints, you are the one feeling it, so I'm sure you are right.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ray Cecil

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

In reply to this post by ratdude747

ratdude747 wrote

.........

Rat Dude, I was browsing the members map and saw you are close to me. My uncle lives in Carrolton, and he drive an old Bullnose with a wooden flatbed I made a few years ago. I've been to Madison many times for the Hydroplane boat races, sat under this bridge many times. I was up there a year ago at Madison Airport getting a fun flight from Cliff Robinson in his WWII open cockpit trainer bi-plane. Good to see another member somewhat close by.

1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

This post was updated on .

Ah. I've never seen the races (in thew four that have happened since I moved here in April 2016)... always is on or near my birthday, and I don't drink so being around a lot of drunks with no other purpose isn't my forte (at least that's how the fireworks are, my wife makes me go to that part

). I've been all over Indiana my entire 27 years of life... this is where I'm likely settled... I'm moving to a new position at the same employer over winter shutdown, apparently I'm "good" enough that a department I work with a lot ~~poached~~ drafted me out of a position I half suck at into one that I, in theory, will kick epic ass in (I'm overqualified, but the pay is the same and the vacation rules are a hair better... and less hours too!). Anyway...

----

Updates (been a month in the making, been uber busy at work and haven't had time to truely prove things out until now):

Discovered that my thermostat was busted and not closing. Replaced it, but cracked the housing since bozo here hasn't done a horizontal thermostat in a shallow recess like this. Lost a week waiting on a new one; my wife has Amazon Prime though her parents, but the two day shipping only works if you actually remember to click the order button

Used a socket extension to crudely confirm TDC... right on the money. Verified that base timing is still at the factory 10 degrees BTDC.

Discovered that my hacked choke (no stove, just the stock electric) may be an issue when warm starting on a cool day. Had "fun" starting it coming out of lunch break a couple times last week (one time having a bunch of lube techs from the Valvoline next door insist on troubleshooting things... didn't know a carburetor from a can of pop . Anybody know of an electric choke that will fit a YFA that is meant to run without a stove or any vacuum stream?

Checked compression tonight. Got dry test pressures of (cylinders 1-6) of 135, 140, 150, 135, 145, and 140. Yes I had all plugs pulled. Maybe I'm not interpreting this right, but seems like I have a tired engine on the edge of needing a rebuild? Edit- the engine was not at operating temp. Not stone cold (drove it home from work a few hours before), but not hot off the highway either.

The thermostat helped a bit with performance, but my fuel economy is still 13MPG or so.

Advice? Thoughts?

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

As preventative maintenance, I replaced the fuel mix solenoid with a NOS Motorcraft unit, and drove it on a long trip yesterday.

Good news: runs well on the interstate. Held 70mph without too much trouble.

Bad news: still shakes (the "lugging" from the start of the thread) in high torque situations. May be the uneven cylinder wear resulting in unbalanced torque?

Also my fuel milage is still a pitiful 12-13mpg on the highway.

Short of the cam timing being off (are the plastic timing gear rings known slip on the steel gear core?) or the meh compression, I'm running out of issues to fix.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Gary Lewis

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

Sorry for the delayed response. But I think you are stumping us.

The compression isn't "bad", it just isn't "good". However, in my estimation a compression test doesn't tell much. A leak-down test will tell a lot more. (I just did a quick search in this thread to see if I've told you about leak-down tests and I didn't find anything to say I have. So if I have please kindly tell me so.)

I've had situations where the compression test say all was well but the engine shook badly. Turned out that I had burned valves on cylinders adjacent to each other in the firing order, and it cause the engine to miss quite a bit. So I'd recommend you do a leak-down test. Here's a good discussion of how it works: https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car-maintenance/car-maintenance-archive/how-to-do-a-leakdown-test.

Another issue I've seen is that some lobes on the cam were "flat", meaning they'd been damaged and weren't opening the valves as far as they were supposed to be opened. That's a lot harder to find as you have to pull the valve cover and use a dial indicator on each rocker arm to determine valve lift. But that's lots better than pulling the cam and miking each lobe.

As for the timing gears, even if the plastic falls off the gears don't usually slip or skip. So I doubt that's your problem as even the absence of the plastic will only retard the timing slightly, and probably not enough to do what you are experiencing.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Ah.

Didn't do a leakdown as I don't have compressed air to do such with. My father inlaw does though... so maybe I'll drive her to Thanksgiving this year and do such while I'm up. Or pony up for a cheap air compressor...

Another option I just though of is to do a wet compression test... that would tell me rings or valves, right?

She needs a valve cover gasket badly... so getting a dial indicator and mag arm in there wouldn't be too bad.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

85lebaront2

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, I think I remember the 240/300 have an aluminum cam gear. I do know that just like the brand C in-lines, they are gear drive not chain driven. A missing tooth on those usually ends up being several and no more cam rotation.

FWIW, my second pickup was a 1977 F150, one of the chemists I worked with had a near twin, a 1977 F100, both trucks had the 300 and automatic. Mine had a 3.25 rear, I don't know what his had. I could consistently get 14 mpg in town and 17-18 highway, he was lucky to get 8-10 in town and maybe 12 highway. Difference, mine had a PCV valve and evaporative canister, his had EGR, and a catalytic converter. No feedback carbs in those days.

If his is an EEC-IV system, there should be a test connector underhood, and hopefully a working MIL light. If so there is a manual way to extract the codes if he doesn't access to a good older scan tool, parts store ones usually are all OBD-II units. The system may be in a "limp" mode due to something not being right. Quick check, after checking the timing with the SPOUT connector or jumper unplugged, reconnect it and see if the timing jumps to more advance, then rev the engine and see what the timing does.

One other item, O2 sensor, on these it is a one wire (no heater) and is in the exhaust manifold just above the exhaust pipe flange and can be a bear to change, possibly even will strip the threads upon removal. When was it last replaced?

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

1984+ has a fiber cam gear. Mine was right at the start of such if it has the original gear.

It is EEC-IV, but no check engine light (Ford didn't introduce those until later in the 1980's). I haven't checked it for lately (*facepalm*)... probably has codes, historically has been giving codes for running lean. I do have a scan tool. Just been lazy and forgetful (out of sight, out of mind?). Given the fuel economy issues my interpretation of such lean codes is a partial misfire (no more vacuum leaks per a smoke test)... the plugs are sooty on one side and clean white on the other... sometimes lean, sometimes rich???

Already verified that I am getting timing advancement via SPOUT at idle (base timing set to 10 degrees BTDC, Spout at idle moves it to ~30 BTDC).

One wire O2 sensor, replaced a few months ago. Did a backpressure test around the same time (<1psi), so a plugged exhaust is ruled out.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

Back in July Ron said the same thing about backpressure tests, when I was the third reply to his thread.

Two months and a thousand dollars later, he finally unbolted his cat and figured it out, after changing the (incredibly loose) timing chain, farting with ignition timing, carb adjustments, checking valve openings, etc..

Don't be the guy who passes over the most simple diagnostics and heads down a rabbit hole.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

FuzzFace2

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Back in July Ron said the same thing about backpressure tests, when I was the third reply to his thread.

Two months and a thousand dollars later, he finally unbolted his cat and figured it out, after changing the (incredibly loose) timing chain, farting with ignition timing, carb adjustments, checking valve openings, etc..

Don't be the guy who passes over the most simple diagnostics and heads down a rabbit hole.

I was also thinking plugged exh. and only way to know is to drop it and test drive.

On the MPG are you sure the speedo is on the money for miles?
Also have to look at the winter blend fuel now as that will also give bad MPG.
Just my .02
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

AFAIK the odometer is accurate. Not by enough to make the difference.

The exhaust is a basket case... I'll drop the cat and see.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

ratdude747

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Disconnected the cats from the manifold and drove it some.

No idea on MPG... didn't fuel it up and drive it far enough to tell.

Seemed to run/shake worse though... which is why I cut the test drive short and went back home. Pretty sure I heard it misfire a bit when I let off the gas (was cruising at 55mph) on one, but only one occasion.

Makes me think the cats are probably OK (everything past the cats is rotted junk) and maybe my head is toast... but opinions welcome here.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Gary Lewis

Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Administrator

Sounds like the cat(s) is good. Time for the leak-down test. Bad valves or a bad cam can certainly cause rough running. Been there and done both of those.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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