Fuel Injection upgrade

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
67 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
Well I am posting this here to hopefully help some people.  I haven't decided which unit I will be using but I am leaning towards converting my '82 F150 to aftermarket fuel injection.  So far the two different kits I am looking at are below.

Holley Sniper Stealth, this unit looks like a Holley double pumper 4150 which should fit under the OE airfilter I will be retaining.  This unit I have not installed personally before but I have installed the conventional Sniper and they are great units with no issues.  Throttle is a bit stiff though but I found there is a mod to add some length to the throttle rod which gives you some mechanical leverage.  I how ever am not sure if one could use the OE throttle cable with this added height.  The up side to the Sniper Stealth over the standard Sniper is this unit also comes with a Ford C4/C6 kick down linkage which makes for a bolt in application.  Wiring is very simple requiring a battery hot, battery ground, ignition hot (key on as well as start), rpm signal, and a fuel pump power wire is all that needs to be installed for functionality.  You can also wire in a AC request wire to a relay to ground, this when the AC is switched on it activates the relay grounding this request wire which will idle the engine up.  The Stealth also requires a external pressure regulator while the standard Sniper has a built in regulator.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/sniper_efi/sniper_efi_stealth_4150/sniper_efi_stealth_4150/parts/550-872

Holley Terminator X Stealth, this unit is just like the Sniper Stealth but it has a few extra features as well as having an external ECM that you can mount inside the cab unlike the Sniper series that has the ECM built into the throttle body.  This unit has more functionality for forced induction as well as nitrous.  Another feature is the unit also has an AC cut out where you wire your AC clutch wire through the Terminator X and the Terminator X will shut your AC down on wide open throttle or when coolant temp exceeds a preset temp helping to prevent overheating of your engine.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_x/terminator_x_and_x_max_stealth_4150/terminator_x_stealth_4150/parts/550-1003

Honestly I am leaning towards the Sniper Stealth cause it is easier to wire in without having a external ECM.  Plus its $350 cheaper than the Terminator X which the only features it has that would benefit me would be the AC cut out at wide open throttle or coolant temp.

For those that might be considering something like this, I am going to provide a run down of a parts list based off my experience of installing numerous fuel injection systems into carbed applications including a 5.0 Coyote swap into a '82 F150 I did years ago.

The list of parts I have selected for my conversion is as follows

x1 640863 Russell Performance Fuel Rail Adapter - Black - 5/16" to -6 AN
x3 640853 Russell Performance Fuel Rail Adapter - Black - 3/8" to -6 AN
x1 SUM-221330B Summit Racing Fuel Rail Adapter - Black - 3/8" Male to -6 AN
x6 750166ERL Earls Performance VaporGuard Hose Ends - Black - Straight - 3/8" Hose Barb to -6 AN
x1 670343 Russell ProClassic Fuel Pressure Take off fitting - Black - -6 AN with 1/8" NPT port
x1 650320 Russell Analog Fuel Pressure Gauge - 0 to 100 PSI - 1/8" NPT
x1 754166ERL Earl Performance VaporGuard Hose Ends - Black - 45* - 3/8" Hose Barb to -6 AN
x1 GF822 AC Delco 2000 to 2004 Corvette Fuel Filter (this filter has a built in 60 PSI pressure regulator)
x1 752066ERL Earls EFI VaporGuard Hose - 3/8" x 20ft
x1 F14B Spectra Premium 16.5 Gallon Fuel Tank 1985 F150
x1 FG34C Spectra Premium sending unit 1985 F150 (will probably source a NOS unit)
x1 HP4500 Standard Fuel Pump Connector 1985 F150
x2 750006ERL Earls VaporGuard Hose Clamps 3/8" set of 5
x1 GCA719-2 Walbro Electric Fuel Pump - 67 GPH - 70 PSI (foxbody mustang fuel pump)

To break down the above list for how it fits together is as follows.

the '85-'86 fuel tank has the large opening sending unit for use with a in tank fuel pump.  It also has built in baffling to prevent fuel slosh which will result in laying down of your engine when you get down to 1/4 tank.  The '85-'86 sending unit fits but is the only years you can use with the correct Ohm rating to work your '80-'84 carbed fuel gauge.  '87 was the same sending unit but the Ohm reading was flipped so your gauge will read full when empty and empty when full.

This sending unit uses a 5/16" return quick disconnect which is where the single 640863 comes into play as it will connect to the 5/16" quick disconnect on the sending unit and allow you to use a 750166ERL -6 AN hose barb to make a 3/8" hose connection.  The pressure side of the sending unit is 3/8" quick disconnect which is where one of the 640853 will connect to.

The fuel filter with integrated fuel pressure regulator has two male 3/8" quick disconnects for your inlet and your return where the other two 640853 comes into play.  You will run a 3/8" fuel hose from the outlet on the sending unit to the inlet for the corvette fuel filter.  The other 3/8" barb on the filter for the return will run back to your fuel sending unit and connect to the 5/16" return port.  The other end of the fuel filter will use the SUM-221330B 3/8 male quick disconnect which will allow you to run a -6 AN to 3/8" hose barb fitting on the outlet to run a length of 3/8 hose up to the holley throttle body.  The fuel filter is also easy to source local if you need one as its just a fuel filter for a 2000 to 2004 Corvette.  The holley supplied filter/regulator assembly comes with a replaceable filter element as well as having a repair kit to repair the regulator.  This Holley unit is over $100 and you will have to rebuild the regulator part over time as well as ordering special filters.  The Corvette unit can be purchased for under $100, rock auto has AC delco for $70.  This regulator that is built in will be replaced every time you replace the filter thus no regulator failure unlike the holley one that could have as its a separate unit in the filter/regulator assembly.

The fuel pump will fit the OE sending unit with no problem.  One could use a fuel safe zip tie to affix the fuel pump to the cradle to help support it but with hose clamps on the hose it should not be needed.  You can run the mustang style fuel sock or you could source a Ford Truck sock it will fit as well.  I will be sourcing a truck sock for mine just cause its shaped differently and I feel would be proper.

The hose barb fitting 754166ERL, the 45* one is not necessary I have it on my list as it might be preferable to run a 45* barb off the fuel pressure fitting at the throttle body to help direct the fuel hose down towards the transmission.

The pressure port and pressure gauge numbers 670343 and 650320 are not necessary.  I only will be running them as to verify fuel pressure if there is a problem.  It is quite valuable and its under $60 for the two pieces.  Holley systems wants between 55 and 65 PSI fuel pressure at the throttle body.  Some claim you need the pressure regulator at the throttle body as further away results in lower pressure.  But I don't agree with that.  Running one fuel line to the throttle body will have the same pressure at the throttle body as it does at the pressure regulator.  The pressure regulator will pressurize the fuel line after the regulator to 60 psi then anything over 60 psi will be vented via the return back to the tank.  So with this said the pressure gauge will help you diagnosis a fuel problem either a fuel pump problem or a faulty fuel filter/regulator assembly.

The fuel sending unit pigtail, the 85-86 uses a four pin connector unlike the 80 - 84 which uses a two pin connector.  You can cut the two pin connector and splice the two wires in for the sending unit and then run a separate ground for your fuel pump and run the blue fuel pump wire from the Holley system to power the fuel pump.  For my setup I like to be able to revert back if I ever decide to so when I drop my fuel tank to do this conversion I will be taking the old sending unit which is a aftermarket unit anyways and I had planned on throwing it away anyways as I have a new NOS '82 unit to go in its place.  So I will be cutting the sending unit up to remove the sending unit connector to plug into the OE sender pigtail then I will solder wires on the inside to connect to the late model pigtail.  Thus if I ever have a problem with fuel injection setup I can easily revert back to OE carb without having to do rewiring.

Only thing I am unsure about is on my alternator.  I currently have a 1G alternator and I do not know if I want to do a 3G upgrade now or stick with the 1G and hope it can provide enough power.  Currently I replaced all interior lights with LED so I saved some power there.  How ever I do have a CB and CB amp wired into my truck along with a headlight relay kit with hella ECE composite headlight housings with a pair of H4 Sylvania silverstar ultra bulbs and a pair of 100w KC driving lights.  Truck also has OE AM/FM stereo cassette radio and dealer A/C.  I might be fine but currently my headlights dim at idle and brighten up with a little throttle.  Same with my ac blower motor slowing down at idle and speeding up with a little throttle.  I don't believe it is over taxing my charging system as it was doing that before I added the CB/CB Amp along with before the KC driving lights.  I think it might just be an alternator or the original voltage regulator just getting lazy after so many years.  For me I don't know if I want to spend $75 with core for a 70A 1G alternator that would be bolt in or find what 3G alternator I need and buy a 90A 3G which would be roughly the same price.

I kind of want to hold off on the 3G alternator if possible till I see if Dakota digital releases their new RTX Retro line up of gauges for our 80-86 trucks.  I emailed them and they said they currently have no plans for it but below is a link to the OE looking 73-79 truck cluster.  I really love it and pray they release it for our trucks.  If they do then I would do the 3G upgrade at the same time.

https://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=1253/category_id=437/mode=prod/prd1253.htm

I also wish I knew if they had plans to release it as well cause then I would get a deep transmission pan with a temp sender bung and just plug it for now when I rebuild my C6.  There is a module that Dakota Digital has to add compass, ambient air temp as well as transmission temp to their clusters.

But in the mean time to get back on topic I don't know if I will do the fuel injection but for a price tag of $1,770.69 for the Sniper Stealth with the above part list is not bad.  The Terminator X is $2,120.69 with the same part list above which I just don't think would be worth the extra $350 for me.  I don't know if it has any performance gains over the cheaper Sniper Stealth or not.  Seems like it just has more functionality towards racing which I wont be doing.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Jacob84
I just did this swap but with the Summit Racing Max EFI system ($750). One quick thing I would note about the Sniper system. Throttle body mounted ecu is not the best for 302/351s. I've read where the location of the distributor and the ecu were too close together causing interference. Ecu in the front, distributor in the front. This is why I bought a system with an externally mounted ecu. No interference whatsoever because the computer is in the dash. The wiring was not bad at all.

That Vapor guard hose is awesome. The corvette regulator/filter works great. I instead bought a 95 tank with pump already in it with return. Was super cheap through RockAuto but now have to figure out how to make my fuel gauge work. Used Vapor Guard hose, Russell Performance quick connect to AN adapters, and Earls Hose fittings (would recommend them 100%).

If it were me I would upgrade to the 3G alternator at the same time. I did and there is no lack of electrical power.

You will notice after driving with these systems for awhile that they were made for the guy running a more mild than stock motor. You might have to pull some fuel out of it if you're running a stock-ish setup. Otherwise the system will continuously be trying to trim fuel to make the AFRs happy. But you said you've done some EFI swaps so you probably have all that down already.

If you have any questions or if someone else has a question I'll keep up with this thread. Been driving mine for a few months so the swap is still fresh on my mind
Jacob,
84 F150 base model, New 95 roller 351w with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear 3.50, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 33s, 2.5" Rough Country lift.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Gary Lewis
Administrator
The later fuel system with the Fuel Delivery Modules, which contain the pump, sender, and valving, is a better system.  And when I get my Arduino computer system built it'll translate from that sender to the Bullnose gauge.

Anyway, I'm following this thread.....
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Rusty_S85
Nicely planned out, it is amazing that in the time from when I converted Darth to MAF/SEFI there were essentially no aftermarket systems other than throttle body ones available for a 460. Lots of support if you had a 302 or 351, especially the 302, tons of Mustang stuff.

The second issue was the transmission, I wanted two things, a lockup converter and an overdrive gear. For the first, there is no 3 speed HD Ford automatic transmission, a driveshaft OD unit was possible installed where the factory center support bearing goes, but still no lockup converter. I ended up purchasing a "donor" a 1990 F250, EFI 460 and E4OD. It gave me everything I needed for the initial change for $850, the aftermarket items at that time (2009) were over $3000. I wanted SEFI as it controls better and had initially acquired a WAY1 EEC-IV unit and a device called a TwEECer that piggybacks on the EEC-IV board and allows changes. Needed changes were Injector size, Cylinder displacement, Firing order and transmission shift points. To go aftermarket at that time required two controllers, engine and transmission.

I was fortunate in having an extra 90mm MAF, the size used on the 460 as the one for the 302 and 351 is too small, it will run out to max flow before the 460 hits it's factory redline. Once I started trying to come up with the transmission shift and lockup strategy, I hit a dead end, the WAY1 EEC is programmed for a small engine (302) in a moderately heavy vehicle (Bronco) so it's transmission strategy is to use the higher reving 302's power curve meaning late shifts under power and unlock the converter at just about any throttle input. Heat is what kills the E4OD, due to a higher stall converter than a C6 it gets hot quickly running in unlock.

While I was back and forth with people on the EEC tuning and TwEECer forums, I was contacted by Adam Marrer of what is now Core Tuning LLC, he offered me a nice package, EEC-V box, tuning software and support. We both had a learning curve, he on 460s and E4ODs, me on how to adjust the various parameters.

You mention that your system will run 55 - 60 psi, welcome to my other world, Turbocharged Chryslers, base pressure is 55 static, rising to whatever boost level, in my case 15 psi, so 55 + 15 = 70 PSI. I am using the SAE J60R9 hose as Chrysler uses a 5/16" supply and 1/4" return.

Ford fuel tanks, I have never seen a baffle for the pumps in the truck tanks, just a well where the pump (1985-1989) or module (1990-1996/7) sits. Every other EFI vehicle I have worked on does seem to have a reservoir, Chrysler uses the return fuel as a jet pump to draw fuel in to the reservoir the pump sits in. On your essentially return less system forward of the regulator, the high pressure is good, GM uses 65 psi on the Vortec 454 to prevent vapor lock (injectors are buried under the plenum).

Good luck with it and keep us posted!

Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Like Bill, I'm going with Ford's EEC-V EFI system.  But I'm not saying that to dissuade you from going aftermarket.  Just to set the stage for what else I'm going to say.

First, my goal is to create a system that can be maintained for many years, if not decades.  I'm not just building my trucks for my own use, but for my kids and, more importantly, grandkids.

Given that, I've thought about most, if not all, of my changes in that light.  For instance, when thinking about the fuel system I laid the '85 fuel pump/sender combo next to the later EFI pump and realized that I could graft the EFI pump onto the '85 pump/sender and have an EFI-capable system.  But then I also realized that when, not if, the pump or sender failed my offspring would have to do what I've done, and they aren't likely to be able to do that.

That brought me back to just getting the pump/sender combo for an EFI system, but that really means the 85-86 one, and it isn't readily available and is expensive.  Plus, I wanted dual tanks and the reservoir/valve combo for the '85/85 EFI systems is even harder to find and more expensive, probably due to the limited # of years it was used.  And that's today - what will it be like in another 10 years when parts start failing?

That didn't make much sense, so with the help of others on here, inc Bill, I came to the conclusion that going with the later Fuel Delivery Modules is the way to go.  They aren't terribly expensive, they cover a wide range of years so are likely to continue to be available, and they only require a wye in the supply and return lines as all the switching is done in the in-tank FDM.

But, as was pointed out, the sending units from a later truck are quite different than the ones for a Bullnose.  In fact, they are both backwards as well as have a different range.  The Bullnose gauges require 10 ohms to send them to full scale and 73 ohms to read at the bottom of the scale, whereas Bricknose and later gauges require 145 ohms for full scale and 22.5 ohms for bottom of the scale.  So not only will they read backwards but when the tank is roughly half full (73 ohms) the Bullnose gauge will show Empty.  And when the tank is empty (22.5 ohms) the Bullnose gauge will show 1/2 full.  (The EVTM says that you can check the gauge by placing a 22 ohm resistor in the circuit and it should read 1/2.)

Given that, I've designed an Arduino system that will translate.  You can read about that in this thread (Bricknose Sender to Bullnose Gauge Interface) and you'll see that I've written the code and it works.  But I've not built the system as I've not gotten to that point.  However, I will 'cause I'll have two trucks that require it.

Having said that, Ray/NotEnoughTrucks has come up with a simpler way to do the translation.  However, he dropped off the radar before giving us the schematic and details awa the promised video. (But his way doesn't have the Arduino's capability of reading and displaying lots of other things like transmission temp, battery voltage, etc.  Nor can it sound an alarm when one of those measurements gets out of bounds.)

In any event, I am just saying that there are lots of ways to skin a cat, so to speak, but depending on your long-term plans some might be better than others.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
In reply to this post by Jacob84
Interesting, I never heard about that interference.  But the Sniper Stealth built to look like the Holley 4150 that I am looking at the ECM is mounted on the passenger side of the throttle body where the choke and vacuum secondaries would be mounted at.  I assume this would help move the ECM further away from the distributor to not have an effect.

Like wise FiTech told us that they don't recommend getting their RPM signal from a GM HEI tach output as it is a very noisy dirty signal and to run a tach signal generator that will clean it up before hand.  That was their excuse to fix the GM installations Ive done of theirs at work that was running too rich on start up and just running horrible.  Every sniper I installed on GM, I just spliced into the tach output on the HEI setup with no problem.  I wonder if Holley built systems have a better system to prevent interference.

I have to figure out what vehicle to grab the 3G alternator from.  I would just simply run a charge wire from the alternator to the solenoid to create a bypass.  I hope that Dakota Digital will release their retro line up for the 80 - 86 trucks if so that would work great cause ive installed numerous VHX clusters by them and you can custom setup any ohm fuel sender you want.  Want to throw in a more modern 92 fuel tank for example with fuel pump assembly just punch in what the ohm spec is and your gauge will work perfectly.  This also means the volt gauge will function properly also as it will be integrated into the system via bus connection to the module that you make your wire connections to.

On my engine, I wouldn't say its stock.  Specs I have are as follows.

CID 306
Compression : 9.0 - 9.75:1 (goal of 9.5:1)
heads : AFR Renegade 165cc
intake manifold : Performer dual plane with 1" divided phenolic spacer
carb : Summit 600cfm vac secondary (what I initially planned to run)
exhaust : hedman street headers 86 - 96 F150/Bronco
Cam : Crane hydraulic roller 216*/224* @ 0.050", 112* LSA, 107* Intake center line, 0.520"/0.542" lift
distributor : DSII 302HO Mustang Distributor (will be shipping out go ford guy in Washington state to recurve it for engine specs)

The exhaust from here I got the Jegs offroad Y pipe for a 86 - 96 F-series/bronco and a very close to OE dimension Magnaflow XL 3 Chamber muffler in 2 1/4" with a 83-86 2 1/4" tail pipe.  Only thing I am thinking differently on is I see Magnaflow offers a Y pipe and converter that is 2 1/2" OE but its one piece mandrel bent compared to the crimped bends on the jegs Y pipe that also has a joiner piece under the oil pan which I don't like the thought of a clamp under my oil pan.

I am a little concerned on the size though, the CFM is 750 on the Holley setups for the 100 - 650 hp variant.  I am a bit concerned it might result in a reduction in throttle response but hopefully the smaller 165cc heads will help keep the velocity up for such a small engine and keep the throttle response up.

Once I get my engine setup finished I am looking at broader performance to build me a C6 transmission with the wide ratio planetary gear set.  If I had decided to go AOD I wouldn't worry about getting the more expensive stealth setup as I would need to run a cable for the transmission anyways.  But sticking with the C6, it limits my options to retain the kickdown rod which I already bought the Holley kick down rod extension.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Did you see the 73 - 79 F-series gauge cluster I linked from Dakota Digital?

I am trying to get them to make one for the 80 - 86 trucks/broncos that looks just like the OE cluster but with the modern twist.  This would really open up a bunch of options for fuel tanks as well as senders.  It also means we wont have to worry about using replacement style sending units that use a linear resistance pattern.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
Interesting, there isn't a baffle?  I thought I saw one on the tank we put in that '82 F150.

Makes me wonder if one will have problems with fuel slosh below 1/4 tank.  That's my biggest concern with not doing a frame mounted pump is I want to be able to run my tank near empty.  Otherwise I might as well stick with a carb as the secondary reason of doing this is to garner as much fuel economy as possible.  The primary reason is the adjustability and the fact that I can have AC step up and if I ever wanted to do remote start on my truck with the fuel injection I believe it has the capability.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Yep on the EEC-V EFI, it looks like you can buy the Terminator X for it.  If I wanted to I could buy the mustang fuel injection setup and buy the mustang Terminator X ECM system to run it.  I just think that would be a lot more costly for me to do than to use as much as I have already bought now.  The summit 600cfm 4V carb I will just keep it put up then if I ever rebuild the 351W for my '78 Mercury that I haven't ran in 6 years now I can put the carb on that car.  Just would have to buy another kick down rod extension from holley.  Or maybe I could throw in a fuel injection setup on that car.  But I was getting 18 mpg highway out of that 351W though with the 2150 2V carb.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Rusty_S85
If my front tank is low, it will sometimes starve on a long up or downhill stretch, level road it will run down to the point that once I switch the pump will not even pick up afterwards. Rear tank will go until empty as the pickup is pretty well in the center.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
How low do you mean by low?

Are we talking 1/8 of a tank or a 1/4 of a tank?

The 85 tank I am using has the sender/pump located in the middle of the tank.  But I could buy one of those holley retrofit kits and drill a hole in my OE tank and mount the pump at the rear of the tank.  Would cost about the same but I don't like the thought of having some holley specific part that I couldn't pick up a replacement locally if I needed to.

This is the Sniper Stealth 4150 I am looking at, this is where the ECM mounts compared to the traditional Sniper that mounts on the front of the throttle body.


And this is showing off the C4/C6 kick down.  I just hope the throttle attachment point isn't too far forward that my throttle cable wont reach properly.  Got my eye on a NOS throttle cable if the OE one will fit.


Im also going gold cause I don't want to worry about trying to keep the silver polished and the black is just too much money for a black assembly.  The Gold gives a nice old style holley look.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

85lebaront2
Administrator
Probably 1/8 tank. BTW, I assume the injection system is in the "carburetor". You loose a lot of the benefits with a throttle body system vs port injection.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
Correct, where the fuel bowls are there are four 100lb/hr injectors for each of the barrels capable of supplying 650 hp.

I know TBI is not as efficient as true MPI, but the Edelbrock MPI setup for $1,800 doesn't have a provision for ford kick down.  Would have to fabricate up a kick down cable or just omit the kick down all together on my C6.

For me I am perfectly fine with a TBI as it would be a improvement over a carburetor.  It will also result in a improved economy as well.  But the biggest up side is I can fine tune it though.  I can set the idle speed where I want it without having to open my hood up.  I can also check the O2 sensor and see what my burn is looking like as well without having to have a stand alone gauge.  Instead of running a mechanical fuel pressure gauge I could get a holley fuel pressure sensor and could view the pressure through the hand held unit.  But I wont be leaving the hand held unit installed though.  It will remain attached long enough to make sure there are no problems everything is adjusted properly then its being unplugged and the wire coiled up and tied behind the dash.

Also I am fine if there is a problem around 1/8 of a tank from time to time.  I try to get a fill up around 1/4 tank but with mostly highway driving of 65 to 75 mph with long stretches between gas stations I would like to know I am not cutting it too close between fill ups.  Also would like to do like I do now and only get fuel once a week vs twice a week.  That's one thing I dread after I move that with the distances I will be driving for work, my short commute would be longer and I would be buying more and more gas.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

85lebaront2
Administrator
Gee, let see, 1990 F250 donor truck $845, EEC-V system with 1 year of support $1500, MAF from 1995 Lincoln Continental parts car $0. Wiring harness from favorite junkyard, time invested to pull it. Updating everything underhood to 1996 specs, maybe $200 including new AC condenser and orifice tube, R134a and oil.

With the donor truck I got a running, but using oil EFI 460, E4OD, all underhood brackets etc.

On the C6 kickdown, check Lokar, they have some nice parts for about any application and they specifically make one for the Chevy style throttle lever with the bottom tail.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
Lokar has a conversion but it requires a lot of trial and error to fit it.

As far as a donor truck goes, I cant buy one, too many cars as it is here and if another one is brought in the city will get involved then.

My thing is buy a edelbrock 5.0 lower and upper intake, the throttle body, the fuel injectors, the fuel rails, and everything else needed such as the sensors the price would be close to $2,000 for everything.  Cause the Foxbody mustang ECU from Holley as the sniper X ECU for OE fuel injection is $1,150 by itself.

I did lots of thinking on this and to do a late model swap would be more money and time than I want to invest into this considering once my 306 build is finished I still got to spend another $2,500 for having a built C6 done to my requirements then another $2,000 for a assembled truetrac 9" center chunk from currie.  Im already pushing it as it is now as my 306 build is right at $8,000 and I am making a change to fuel injection for another $2,000 roughly.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Jacob84
In reply to this post by Rusty_S85
It may not be a wide spread issue with the interference but I have heard of it. I would think that side mounted ecu would be better. The efi system that I heard it happening too was the Sniper (not stealth) system but like I said, if it was widespread it would be all over the forums so you might be fine.

Are you running a v belt or serpentine system for the accessories? I had a donor (totaled 95 f150 with rodent modified wiring and fallen tree modified cab, hood, and tailgate) so I swapped everything over to the serpentine system.

 I think you'll be fine as far as the tuning looking at your motor specs. I have a 351w, stock heads, stock rotating assembly, Weiand intake, roller camshaft .445/.445 lift .210/.211 duration @.050 115 LSA. So mine is stock-ish, great torque and power but still had to pull fuel out so it idles well and doesn't fall on it's face when I floor it.

That Jegs y pipe is good quality but make sure it fits correctly. If it were me I would just take it to a reputable shop and have them build an exhaust. I wasted a ton of money trying to build my own exhaust.....took it to a shop and now I have a tucked 2.5 inch single exhaust, off brand Magnaflow muffler, 60 degree bent tail pipe with a factory flared tip. And the exhaust doesn't dangle a foot below the bed like a stock tailpipe, more like 2 inches below the bed. It looks and sounds awesome.

I don't think you'll have a throttle response problem. I've had no issues even with the massive throttle body I have. Granted, I have more displacement and tame cam, but my throttle response improved greatly with the new EFI over the carb.

I'm currently not running a kickdown on my C6 because there was no provision for it on the Summit Max EFI500 system. I'm also looking for a solution.
Jacob,
84 F150 base model, New 95 roller 351w with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear 3.50, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 33s, 2.5" Rough Country lift.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
I will have to look into that and see what other people are having issues with.

Im running the stock V belt setup.  I thought of switching to serpentine but my problem is my truck is dealer A/C with the York compressor.  I would have to completely pull my AC system under the hood and redo it to make it work with the serpentine setup.  Something I currently am not going to mess with.  But eventually I do want to pull the small condenser off and install a larger condenser that covers the whole width of the radiator vs just half of it.  I would also convert to O ring style fittings over the dealer setup of using hose clamps.

I know with a 3G setup I should be good to run the 90A small case 3G alternator with a V belt without having a slippage problem.  I think 90A will be well over enough for my truck even with fuel injection.

I like the jegs Y pipe I just don't like the split under the oil pan.  Im thinking about getting the one from magnaflow with the nice clean mandrel bends.  I will be having the muffler shop doing some of my install how ever.

The Y-pipes out back to the muffler I will do myself as I got the band clamp style muffler clamps.  The tail pipe I have to cut off the '83 - '86 hanger which is the hook style for the rubber doughnut which my '82 doesn't have.  I will take the first tail pipe I bought that is correct for my '82 with the correct hanger but its in a too small 2" pipe.  I will cut off the OE hanger from there and mock it up and tack it in place then take it to the muffler shop I know to have it welded on properly.

All I really need for my exhaust is the Y pipe and then its just a straight pipe from the Y pipe back to the muffler then its the tail pipe.  If I was going with something a bit more custom then by all means I would let a muffler shop do the install.

I really am anxious to see how my setup will sound, I don't want super loud and crazy but I want a good sound.  I also hope the thick Ford Racing slant roof valve covers will muffle the Scorpion 1.6:1 roller rockers I will be running.

I agree on the EFI setup, every sniper we've installed the throttle response has been amazing.  Only thing is getting the IAC setup with in specs on the hand unit has resulted in some with a low idle speed creating excessive suction on the throttle plates that make them quite sticky feeling.  But I seen that there is a extension for the throttle arm to help give better leverage to make the throttle feel smoother.  Might be a option if I run into that problem.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Rusty_S85
In reply to this post by Rusty_S85
Well I got my fuel injection in today.  Did a test fit of my NOS aircleaner and its no go.  My NOS aircleaner doesn't fit the opening on the 4150 style sniper.  My NOS aircleaner has a way larger opening for some reason and that is the part number that came up for my application for my '82 F150.

I tried my split aircleaner off the truck and it fits a little better but I would need to run a spacer on the aircleaner as the simulated float adjustment screws are contacting the aircleaner.  I should be able to get by with 1/2" but my thing is still the aircleaner.  my old one is all split and broken up there would be no point in having the cold air hooked up as its able to suck air from all over the place.

So now the fun time of trying to find a used aircleaner fairly cheap for our trucks.  I found a few for 77 - 79 that look identical to what I have.  I could possibly even rob the aircleaner off my '78 mercury which is the same 2V carb as all I need is just the base.  But I think the number of openings are different in the base for sensors and my pcv filter is located on the driverside on my truck but on the passengerside rear on the mercury.

Really throws a wrench in the works for me unless I can devise a way to shrink the NOS aircleaner mount to fit I am stuck with my old unit hunting for a new one.  Sucks cause I paid $150 for this NOS aircleaner and cant even use it.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

Jacob84
Post some pics of the throttle body and some measurements if you can. My 5.8 HO aircleaner cleared my Fitech throttle body perfectly and can compare your measurements to my aircleaner  You've got a 5.0 right? Would be super cool if a 5.0 HO dual snorkel air cleaner fit
Jacob,
84 F150 base model, New 95 roller 351w with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear 3.50, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 33s, 2.5" Rough Country lift.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fuel Injection upgrade

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Rusty_S85
Is your NOS air cleaner for a VV? They have a larger air cleaner opening.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

1234