Fuel Injection upgrade

Gary Lewis wrote

Also, I think there are at least three sizes of V8 air cleaner lids: the 351W HO/460 lid is the largest; the Mustang HO lid is next; and the truck 2bbl lid is the smallest.  I'm not sure that the Mustang lid isn't the same size as the 2bbl lid, but I'm fairly sure it is smaller than the 351W HO lid.

 

The air cleaner lid for the 460 engine is the same size as the lids found on the 5.8L 4V H.O. and the [dual snorkel] 5.0L 4V H.O. found on the 1983 - 1985 Mustang GT.  These air cleaners were designed to fit over the stock Motorcraft/Holley 4180 carburetor, which all of these models used.

The [dual snorkel] 5.0L E.F.I. H.O. air cleaner lid found on the 1984 and 1985 Mustang GT with automatic transmissions is also the same size, but the air cleaner housing is a bit larger to fit over the throttle body.

Good to know, Rick.  Thanks!

Little update, havent done much though seeing as work is slow and money coming in is a bit slow to allow me to make larger payments out at this moment.  But I did save some money though on my fuel injection setup though.

With how many systems I have installed at work, the customers have bought their own Sniper systems themselves and brought them to us to install.  They how ever purchase the complete kit complete with external fuel pump, hose, fittings, clamps, and other parts.  We dont really use much of this stuff as we always push the customer to install a in tank fuel pump as its a better setup.  Needless to say I have a bunch of brand new left over parts, so I checked what I had at work this past week as I toss them all into a single box I use for plumbing fittings.  I found that in the box I had the following fittings.

x6 -6AN Earls VaporGuard hose end
x2 -6AN unknown brand 45* hose end (push lock)
x11 #16 fuel injection hose clamps
x2 Russell EFI fitting female quick disconnect -6AN to unknown size (possibly 3/8")

What I needed for my system is exactly six of the VaporGuard hose ends which I had brand new, I also needed the #16 fuel injection hose clamps so I dont have to buy those, the quick disconnect I need two 5/16" and two 3/8" but not sure which ones I have so I purchased the following.

x2 Russell 640853 -6AN to 3/8" female quick disconnect
x2 Russell 640863 -6AN to 5/16" female quick disconnect
x1 Vibrant 16881 - 6AN to 3/8" male quick disconnect

Was going to pick these up from Summit/Jegs but the total cost with tax and shipping was pushing $78.  I ended up buying from amazon as I got all of this with tax included with free prime shipping for $46.78 which saved me a easy $30 on my purchase ontop of the money I saved from having to buy the hose clamps, and the -6AN vaporguard hose ends.  Instead of buying the 45 I will try the 45 degree fitting on the engine stand when I mock it all up to see which looks better and if the 45 will look better then I will order the proper VaporGuard 45.  Boss wants me to use what is avaliable but non vapor guard hose ends will actually have a good chance of tearing the inner barrier of the hose which is supposed to reduce the amount of fuel vapors escaping through the hose itself.  I myself do not want to have any problems so I will be spending the money to use the correct components.

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I will break this part out as this is not related to the fittings, this has to do with the fuel tank.  For those that know, when Ford made the switch to EFI in '85/'86 the fuel tanks were changed to accept a in tank fuel pump but baffling was not added to the fuel tanks.  The baffling wouldnt be added till the mid '90s from what I have been able to find out.

This is where my plan changed, I decided to use Holley's 16-111 HydraMat which is a rectangular sock that is in 3"x15" dimensions with a 11mm connector for the pump.  The video below shows a demo of the HydraMat in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rG97UuVgmQ

The reviews I have read on this many people have stated that they ran their tank basically bone dry when their engine stalled out.  This sounds great but with the design of the ford saddle tank I am not too sure how well it will work as I havent had a chance to measure the saddle tank to see how far the hydramat will reach.

This is where Texas Auto Gear comes into play, at work we have used them before and David is a real stand up guy.  Im going to be contacting him to see how much money he would charge to take my new '85-'86 saddle tank and cutting the top off the tank and fabricating and welding in a baffle to isolate the pump from the rest of the tank to ensure there will not be a problem.  If 15" length would be doable I am really contemplating having the baffle made 15" long so I can still use the HydraMat as it does a very good job at sucking up all the fuel it touches which will go a long way to preventing air bubbles from entering the fuel system.  I also want to ask David to see how much he would charge me to cut the fuel tank forward of the forward saddle mount and welding in a new piece of metal extending the fuel tank around 4 to 6 inches infront of the front saddle mount.  If I am doing my math right without accounting for the crunched down front of the tank adding 6" would be adding 5.44 Gallons to the tank.  But this is going off the dimensions listed on the product page for the spectra tank.  I figured 5 gallons is about the most I could hope for adding 6" to the length which would raise a 16.5 (thats what spectra lists the tank as) saddle tank to 21.5 Gallons at most.  My goal would be 19 Gallons if possible, and if I go with the shorter 4" addition to length that would give me 3.63 gallons or a best of 3 gallons which would put me right at 19.5 gallons.  I just have to crawl under my truck and see if I can extend the length of my tank towards the front without interference and hopefully David wont charge too much to modify this tank.

I figure if I pull this off then I would basically have a short bed flare side F150 with between a 19 and 21 gallon fuel tank in the OE location.  This would be on par with cutting a second fuel door on the flare side fender and adding a rear tank.  That is always another option but I dont want to deal with the complication of adding a second tank and doing it right, I am so picky I would want OE switches in the dash and everything and that is just getting too far into it.  I feel this will be the best way for me especially considering I have to have my tank chopped up anyways to add a baffling into it in the first place.

Only thing I have to decide on is how I want to coat my fuel tank after I get it back before installation.  I could get Eastwood`s Tank Tone but Ive used it before and it scratches fairly easily.  I think a better option would be Eastwoods 2K paint which is quite pricy but its fairly durable.

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This break out is for the tuning of the sniper itself.  I was going to just drive the truck and play with it myself, but being on the Holley Sniper Owners Group over on FB, I found that there is a local guy to me out in Crosby that does remote as well as in person tuning of these systems, he also has a chassis dyno and not sure if I should wait till after I do my transmission and axle ratio change or let him do the tuning with these old components but the starting price is $200 for a tune in person and I could kill two birds with one stone by letting him tune my truck as well as see what kind of power my 306 is making at the rear wheels.  Which will be fairly low with a worn out C6 transmission with a good amount of slippage ontop of having 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2`s and a OE 2.75:1 axle ratio.

But this guy is supposed to be good everyone cant say enough good things about him and I rather let him tune my setup and make my truck where he will just run like a modern fuel injection setup.

Then if Dakota Digital ever comes out with an RTX Retro gauge set for our trucks I will pick that up then pick up a hyperspark I believe it is and add timing control to my sniper as well and let him tune that aspect in as well.

Another update, I added more to my purchase from amazon cause the paper note I had the part numbers wrote down on that I keep at my pc for ordering, I had the wrong part number, 670344 wrote down when it should be 670343 for the fuel pressure take off in -6AN in black.  Amazon does have this so I purchased the Russell Analog Fuel pressure gauge 0-100 psi 650320 and the Russell Proclassic fuel pressure fitting 670343.

I also picked up a chrome proform ford oval fuel pump block off that I will see how well Eastwood 2K engine primer and ford corporate blue will cover it as I dont care for chrome but wasnt going to pay $7 more for a black crinkle finish when the chrome was already cheapest at $11.

Needless to say I saved more money while using up the last $50 on one of my $100 gift cards from christmas.  Still got one more $100 gift card to go.

the two fittings that I have pricing for is from summit at $15.99 for the 670343 and $35.99 for the 650320.

I got those two items and the proform 302-290 block off plate for a total of $62.97 with tax.  I saved $0.80 on the 670343 fitting as there was a individual selling them cheaper than amazon was but it wasnt shipping via prime but it was still free shipping.  Throw in the $50 credit I had on amazon with my gift card it only cost me $12.97.

So all I have left on my list right now for the engine besides the 3G conversion I still need to get parts for but still trying to find a 95A 3G with the wide 8" pivot mount.  I only have to pick up the following.

SUM-681250 : x3 Lap join 2 1/2" band clamps - Exhaust
754166ERL : VaporGuard Hose end 3/8" to 45* -6AN (this one is only if the 45* one I have currently looks like it will give me a better angle for the hose)
GF822 : AC Delco Fuel Filter 00-04 corvette
752066ERL : VaporGuard hose 3/8 x 20ft
F14B : Spectra 16.5 gallon saddletank '85 F150
FG346 : Spectra Sending Unit '85 F150 (going to look up the part number some other day for a NOS unit)
HP4500 : Standard fuel pump pigtail '85 F150
PB1084ST : Dayco/Powerbond Street Performance Balancer 50oz. (This one has laser etched timing marks including a 50* btdc mark which will make life easy for me if I ever upgrade to the Holley timing control)
GSS342BX : Walbro Electric fuel pump
16-111 : 3"x15" HydraMat pickup

Looks like I have drastically cut my list down though since I increased my list size by deciding to go fuel injection.

Once I get the engine built so I know compression ratio and all that I can mail off my mustang distributor to the guy up in Washington state so I can have him recurve the distributor, I really want to give him as accurate specifications as I can when it comes to compression and displacement.  I also still need to send my headers out to this coater out towards Austin that can ceramic coat them, Im thinking about going black now, I was looking at the Zinc finish that many restoration people go with for the OE cast iron look but the photos show a greenish greyish color and I just dont know how that would look on my shorty headers.

Other than that the fuel tank would be one of the last things I get so I can drop it off at Texas Autogear to show him what I want done to it.  I rather let my new motor sit for a few days/weeks to let the Eastwood 2K paint to fully cure before installation.

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On a side note one thing I thought about doing was mounting the mechanical fuel pump but leave the eccentric off and just hook the EFI lines to the fuel pump to give the illusion of a carb setup.  I saw a guy do that on a chevrolet but its easier for him as he can simply pull the push rod out and reinstall if if he ever wants to go back.  For us ford guys we cant do that as we have to disassemble the front of the motor to get to the fuel pump eccentric.

Plus I dont know if the mechanical fuel pump would provide a restriction and slow flow down or if it would create a pressure spike before the throttlebody dumping fuel back to the tank and the injectors not getting the proper fuel pressure.

I did honestly think of strapping the rubber fuel line with the metal hardline that I will cap off and then run it up the front of the motor like the OE fuel pump would have but I think it would be better to just run the fuel line down the back of the motor over the transmission bell housing and then to the driverside frame.

You are REALLY into this.  I can't wait to see what it'll be like.  I don't know what to say but "Keep up the good work!"  

lol Yep I am over thinking it all as I want to have it where it will be a smooth installation and when I get the transmission I want to be able to pull my old transmission out myself and install the new one without having to worry about a fuel hose laying in the way or wiring.  Im going to snag a clamp from work and see if I can locate a OE style bell housing bolt with a stud so I can bolt the wiring to.  Or I might say screw it and clamp it to the back of the driverside and passengerside head.  Will need one on the passengerside head to hold the 02 sensor wire as it will be connected on the passengerside for bank one.  But I am wondering if it would be better to install the 02 sensor in the Y of the Y pipe so it can read both banks.  Holley acts like they want it to be just one bank reading but not sure if that is set in stone for proper operation.  If I put it in the Y pipe it would be easier to get to from under the truck if I ever have to replace the 02 sensor.

Air cleaner I havent done anything on that front, I still am keeping an eye out for some aircleaners on Ebay, there is a used one for a 5.8 HO with one snorkel but as stated above those are larger so my 302 aircleaner lid would not fit it unless the black lid from my NOS cleaner would fit I dont know if it does then that would be good for me as I rather have the vacuum ports ontop of the aircleaner lid for the fresh air door.

I was told to run two O2 sensors instead of placing one in the y-pipe.  I don't remember who told me that, but I tend to think it was one of the guys from Core Tuning.  Their thinking was that the two banks will be running differently and by mixing the signal you don't get good results.

Correct but with aftermarket systems most of them are like Holley`s only have one O2 sensor and they suggest placing it with in 3 to 5 inches of where the header pipes merge.

Well I think I have a slightly different idea that I am playing around with.

My initial plan was to just run a single 3/8 vapor guard hose from the corvette fuel filter/pressure regulator down the frame rail then across to the transmission and up the transmission to the fuel injection system.

Well a guy showed me how he did his with bent metal lines and part of me always liked the idea of that, not only would it look stock but it would also stop quite a bit of risk of hose failure since the hose would be short pieces.

I was browsing and found that Inline tube sells a 3/8" stainless steel fuel line for a 80 - 86 F150 long bed truck.  I know my '82 is a short bed flareside but I wont be hooking it up exactly as OE cause I need to place a inline filter.  So my line of thought is use the hardline from the OE location at the fuel pump back to just in front of the tank and cut the hardline.  Then decide if I want to use hardline to AN compression fittings or invest in the AN turret and die set for my flare tool from eastwood and find some AN tube nuts and can do it this way.  Then all I would have would be rubber hose from the hardline to the fuel filter and from the fuel filter to the tank and a short piece from the OE fuel pump location to a custom bent 3/8" hardline at the engine to allow for flex.

Part of me thinks it would be better and it would save me the money on having to buy 20 ft of hose for $100.95 and I could buy just the 10 ft length of hose for $50 and have well over enough.  Problem is though the hose end fittings I got some of them I wouldnt be able to use anymore.  I also would have to invest in the AN flare turret/die for my flare tool from eastwood and the cost of that is $100.

So $55 for the stainless steel hardline, $100 for the turret die set then the tube nuts which I dont know where you get those at.  But so far that is $155 more on my bill all in the name to save $50 by going with 10ft of hose vs 20ft and running it all in hose.

This is the hardline I was looking at and part of me thinks it would be cool but part of me also think its extra work and extra cost that wont provide me any real benefit.

https://www.inlinetube.com/products/sfrf8001

The reason Gary and I both run dual O2 sensors, our EFI systems are sequential, meaning the injectors are individually fired in the firing order sequence. If O2 sensor 11 (standardized location designation) detects a lean mixture the EEC can increase the pulse width on that bank (1-4) and for rich decrease it. For a TBI or bank fired system, a single sensor at the confluence of the two banks is adequate. I have my wideband where the stock single sensor for a bank fired system would be.

Ford truck engines were all bank fired prior to 1994, 1994 302s with automatic trans and 1995 300 and 351s are the same. The sequential truck systems are easy to identify, they are all MAF systems. On the 460, only 1996/7 California models were sequential and they are EEC-V rather than EEC-IV systems and have misfire detectors and a pressure feedback EGR system along with a 3rd O2 sensor and a catalyst overheat sensor.

Ah ok, this is a group fire, all four injectors fire at the same time and the same rate.  Thats why I dont know if I should install the O2 sensor in the Y portion as the magnaflow Y pipe I want to get has a precat with a O2 sensor bung there, or if I should do it like Holley states and put it with in 10 inches of the point the header pipes merge which would be the O2 port on the passengerside header collector which is about 2 to 3 inches after the pipes merge into the collector.

Well I heard something today from another user on the Sniper owners page and I have never heard it before.

He stressed to not use a factory snorkel air cleaner but to run a open element filter as the snorkel filters are like sucking through a straw and that he sees 40 to 60 hp loss on the dyno running a snorkel filter vs a open element filter.

Has anyone here ever heard of such bs like this?

Now this guy has me second guessing my plan to use my OE single snorkel air filter as I dont want to choke this engine down if it really is doing that.  I just dont see how it could as I believe this aircleaner was the same aircleaner used from 255 through the 400 I know its a 302/351 aircleaner though.

Also has me rethinking if I should just source a 83-85 dual snorkel mustang aircleaner and then chop up the driverside snorkel to clear my dealer A/C system  that is directly in the way.

I just know I dont want an open element filter.  I want cold air not sucking hot air from under the hood.  That is well known among speed magazines that hot air under the hood produces less power than pulling in cooler dense air from outside the engine bay.

I don't know what the amount of loss is with snorkels, but there is a loss.

I think a factory air cleaner is needed with a carb, but not as much with EFI.  The issue with a carb is that the air/fuel ratio with a carb varies by the temp of the air coming into the carb.  So if your AFR is right at 72 degrees then it is wrong everywhere else.  But an EFI system measures both the inlet air temp as well as the effective AFR, and adjusts for that, so having a constant inlet air temp is not a requirement for EFI like it is for a carb.

However, there's another issue - the amount of oxygen in each cubic foot of air coming in.  That's the limiting factor in how much power you can make since that determines the amount of fuel you can have to get the right AFR.  And hot air has far fewer oxygen molecules in it than cold air does.

So for EFI you still want the coldest air you can get, and an open air filter is the absolutely worst thing you can do if you want cold air.  Given that, I'd say the best solution is a dual snorkel air cleaner plumbed to the radiator support to get the coldest air you can.  Or, a cold air system that is plumbed to a source of cold air.

Correct, I would still hook up the emission hose to the header tube as I have the stuff to do it.  But my main goal is I wanted cold air as that is what you want for making power.  I figure there may or may not be some loss but I mean 40 to 60 hp.  I mean jesus if my 306 makes 385 hp that means with the OE aircleaner I would only be making 325 - 345hp.  Which I guess still exceeds my goal of 300hp and does double the OE 125hp rating of the smog 302.  But still I just cant stand the thought of losing 40 to 60 hp on an aircleaner.

I just dont see that happening.

As far as dual snorkel goes, the more I think about it, the more I think I want to do it.  My big problem is the driver side snorkel would be right where my AC is at.

This is a older photo but looking at it and photos of the dual snorkel install you worked on.  I strongly believe the driverside snorkel will be right at my oil dipstick and A/C hoses and maybe if its angled forward enough the back of my york compressor.



Just trying to think of how I could do it and modify it to work but still retain my A/C system the way it currently is as well as the dipstick.

I did look at the spectre dual snorkel aircleaner they have a 180* opposed dual snorkel but the same guy said he tried the spectre snorkel aircleaner and saw a loss of 15hp compared to not even running an aircleaner.

Reading ive been doing it looks like 351W and 460 equipped trucks had dual snorkel aircleaners but only if they didnt have A/C seems like with A/C you got down graded to the single snorkel aircleaner.

So I went through and found all the 351 aircleaners I could find part number wise but couldnt really find much about them.

From the stock photos of dual snorkel trucks it does appear they were all non A/C trucks.  Doesnt help me though cause I dont know exactly how to make a dual snorkel work on my dealer equipped truck.  Seems like it will be right where my oil dipstick and A/C hoses run which is a shame.

I did hear back from that same guy on the sniper group he claims he only ever seen a 10 degree difference between ambient and underhood temp while road racing his vehicle hard.  Maybe that is, but how does that apply to a bullnose truck especially one being driven in a region where summer can be up to 110 degrees ambient.  that means the air would be pushing 120 degrees ambient and then throw in headers which always add heat under the hood I dont know if I would ever want to try and run a open element aircleaner.

Aircleaners I found as potential options are as follows

E1TZ-9600-AH : 351W 81/86 F100/250 HD aircleaner
E1TZ-9600-AJ : 302/351W 81/85 Standard aircleaner
E1TZ-9600-AS : 351W 82/87 Standard aircleaner
E1TZ-9600-G : 351M/400 81/82 HD aircleaner
E1TZ-9600-A : 351M/400 81/82 Standard aircleaner
E2TZ-9600-U : 351 82 HD aircleaner
E4TZ-9600-K : 351 84/87 HD aircleaner
E4TZ-9600-P : 351-4/B 84/87
E5TZ-9600-E : 351-4/B 86/86 O/8500 lbs
E5TZ-9600-H r/b E7TZ-9600-J : 351-4/B 85/86 U/8500 lbs

Hopefully one of those part numbers will come back with a reasonably priced hit for one for sale.  Not going to pay $300+ for a 83/85 mustang aircleaner to see what I can do to make work.

The 460s had a single snorkel air cleaner with a vacuum actuated door on the back that was connected directly to manifold vacuum. That way when the manifold vacuum dropped it would open. The snorkel was connected by a short flex hose to an inlet elbow on the right side of the radiator where it, in theory, would get cooler air.

The later EFI trucks have the air filter on the left side inner fender area, behind the coolant and windshield washer reservoir assembly, it is a rectangular filter with a duct running to the side of the radiator and the inlet curved away from the radiator providing cooler air to the system.

I believe Gary Lewis had built one for his 351M/400 project before he and Tim Meyer decided on going EFI with it. He took a snorkel off an old air cleaner and mounted it to clear everything so he had dual snorkels.

Leaving Ford, GM and Chrysler had a number of dual snorkel air cleaners, one Olds 442 had big flex hoses down to two under bumper scoops., Chrysler also had a number that fit on the Holley and AVS size air horns.

Thats what I was even thinking of doing just grabbing a cheapie single snorkel truck aircleaner and making my own dual snorkel.  I just dont want to get one like I have for my 302 cause that aluminum is flimsy and cracked all over so I wouldnt like the idea of doing that.

But my big thing is not so much the hook up for the duct work as I got a duplicate passengerside air duct from another '82 F150 I can cut up and make work.  My thing is still the A/C I dont want to force my AC hoses down nor do I want to try and force them up to lay atop the snorkel.  It really puts me in a spot where I am unsure.  I would basically have to mock everything up on my truck as it is now and take into account the aircleaner might sit a little differently going from a OE 2v carb to the 4150 style 4v throttle body.

I found some GM aircleaners with dual snorkels that are reproductions but the snorkels are too close together.

I also looked at the spectre ones that I can also get they have angled and 180 degree snorkels but the hoses are horrible looking dryer vent hoses.



Plus the kit is $175 and the aircleaner itself without the hoses is $235.  For those prices I might be more interested in spending the $200 - $300 on a 84/85 Mustang aircleaner or saving money getting a good single snorkel from a 351w and chopping it up to make a dual snorkel.

Yes, I built a dual-snorkel air cleaner for Dad's truck, and it is chronicled here on FTE: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1291332-dads-air-cleaner.html.

With the info there you can make one to clear your A/C compressor.  You want to start with a 351HO air cleaner as it has a steel base, and then position the to-be hole where the snorkel hits.  However, as explained in that thread, there are several snorkels with different droop and exit angles.  So you will want to look for the right snorkel.

However, I think that thread also points out that you can drill the spot welds, reposition the bits of the snorkel, and either weld it or braze it back together to get the angle and droop you want.

I might end up doing that at least I can customize it and mock it up to fit around my A/C components.

Ill keep an eye out for the 83-85 5.8L HO aircleaner.  There is one on ebay now but its $75 for the filter then another $37 for the shipping but the cleaner is quite beat up the lid looks warped its so beat up.  Think I will hold off for something a bit nicer.

On a side note are the 5.0L HO aircleaners the same steel base as the 5.8: HO aircleaner?

I have came across a few 5.0L HO ones but not sure if they are the same as the 5.8L

Looking at your photos of your build I dont know if I can make it work with the valve covers I have and where the breathers are placed.

This is the photo from your build that has me thinking this right now.


And the valve covers that I have for clearing my Scorpion roller rockers.


And a couple photos with the valve covers installed with pcv and with breather.  It appears the snorkel would be sitting right where the breather/pcv would have to go.  Would have to rotate the aircleaner some to off set the passenger side snorkel then mount the driver side a bit further back to balance the angle out I think.  Or relocate both snorkels.