"Realistic" towing ratings

Stopping is the bigger concern.  Why I wont be towing oversized dual axle dumpster trailers with my flareside.  I have always wanted to get a boat again one day and this truck did pull a old welcraft Texas Edition inboard/outboard boat nicely.  But I think on here some discussion was had and for me it was generally accepted that I should be able to tow a 14,000 lb trailer easily which is considerably more than the documentation on here is listed axle ratio wise, it starts off with a 5.0 automatic at 3.55:1 gearing and I am looking at 3.25:1 gearing but will offset it by going with the E4OD planetary gear set for lower first and second gear for improved acceleration as well as towing without harming cruising.  Me like you I wont be doing much towing but I do like the option and I know I have pulled a boat before and it wasnt great but it wasnt horrible, that was also with my oversized tires, 2.75:1 axle that was more like a 2.55:1 axle and a worn out C6 transmission with the smog 125hp 302.  None of that will be in the equation anymore for me.

But with the technology we have today, there is no reason to not have a trailer with brakes and for me the only thing I might tow would be a boat and boats dont use electric brakes they use hydraulic surge brakes since water and electric trailer brakes dont go together.

Rusty_S85 wrote

But with the technology we have today, there is no reason to not have a trailer with brakes and for me the only thing I might tow would be a boat and boats dont use electric brakes they use hydraulic surge brakes since water and electric trailer brakes dont go together.

Lots of boat trailers have electric brakes, including mine.  I replaced the totally rusted-up surge brake system with 4-wheel electric brakes years ago and they've worked wonderfully.  I'll never go back to hydraulic brakes on a boat trailer, and probably not on any trailer.

And the new vehicles, like Blue, have electric brake controllers built in.  Actually, Blue's brake controller is integrated with the sway/skid control system and will tap the trailer brakes to straighten you out should things start to go wonky.  I saw that happen once when an 18-wheeler blew by us at more then 20 MPH faster than we were going and his bow wave moved the trailer sideways a bit.  The controller tapped the brakes on the trailer, not the truck, and we were instantly straight.

But that technology requires either electric or electric-over-hydraulic brakes.  It will not work on surge brakes.

Gary Lewis wrote

Rusty_S85 wrote

But with the technology we have today, there is no reason to not have a trailer with brakes and for me the only thing I might tow would be a boat and boats dont use electric brakes they use hydraulic surge brakes since water and electric trailer brakes dont go together.

Lots of boat trailers have electric brakes, including mine.  I replaced the totally rusted-up surge brake system with 4-wheel electric brakes years ago and they've worked wonderfully.  I'll never go back to hydraulic brakes on a boat trailer, and probably not on any trailer.

And the new vehicles, like Blue, have electric brake controllers built in.  Actually, Blue's brake controller is integrated with the sway/skid control system and will tap the trailer brakes to straighten you out should things start to go wonky.  I saw that happen once when an 18-wheeler blew by us at more then 20 MPH faster than we were going and his bow wave moved the trailer sideways a bit.  The controller tapped the brakes on the trailer, not the truck, and we were instantly straight.

But that technology requires either electric or electric-over-hydraulic brakes.  It will not work on surge brakes.

I never seen one with electric brakes on a boat trailer and you look up boat trailer brakes you find that some have them but its not recommended.

First site when doing search for boat trailer brakes that states the following.

"However, few boat trailers are equipped with electric brakes, but they’re used on many RV and utility trailers. RV-grade systems, with painted automotive-grade components, are not intended for submersion, especially in salt water. Submerging a pair of electromagnet actuators and their wiring is generally regarded with the suspicion that occurs whenever you mix water with electricity. Tie Down Engineering does not recommend their electric brakes for marine applications."

The above is from an article by West Marine.

I did a lot of research on the topic before I went that way.  And I did read what West Marine said, but given what many others said and what my trailer manufacturer told me I found that it is badly out of date..  Read what eTrailer said:

Traditionally, trailer manufacturers did not use electric brakes on boat trailers because the brake magnet wiring and trailer wiring did not always have the best insulation or water protection.

These days, more and more manufacturers are using electric brakes on boat trailers due to improvements in wiring insulation and heat shrink connectors. If you are going to use electric brakes, I strongly recommend using heat shrink butt connectors, like part # DW05745-10, when splicing the wires together.

Properly installed electric brakes can be great.  But, as eTrailer says, if you don't wire them correctly you'll have problems.  The wiring going into the magnet, and the magnet itself, is encased in epoxy.  So it is just the connections that get wet.  Do them correctly and you won't have problems.

Gary Lewis wrote

I did a lot of research on the topic before I went that way.  And I did read what West Marine said, but given what many others said and what my trailer manufacturer told me I found that it is badly out of date..  Read what eTrailer said:

Traditionally, trailer manufacturers did not use electric brakes on boat trailers because the brake magnet wiring and trailer wiring did not always have the best insulation or water protection.

These days, more and more manufacturers are using electric brakes on boat trailers due to improvements in wiring insulation and heat shrink connectors. If you are going to use electric brakes, I strongly recommend using heat shrink butt connectors, like part # DW05745-10, when splicing the wires together.

Properly installed electric brakes can be great.  But, as eTrailer says, if you don't wire them correctly you'll have problems.  The wiring going into the magnet, and the magnet itself, is encased in epoxy.  So it is just the connections that get wet.  Do them correctly and you won't have problems.

Depends on the money you pay, at work we buy loaded backing plates from the local trailer shop as its cheaper than buying the shoe kits, the ones Ive installed are like $30 per loaded backing plate and as far as the seals on the magnets and the wires going into the magnets they didnt look quality to me so maybe its a price thing.  I know the only electric trailer brakes I have is on a newer truck and my flareside doesnt have electric trailer brakes.  I could wire some up but then it poses the problem of where do I mount the unit considering that I already have a large CB radio hanging under the dash and the left side has my toggle switch for my alarm valet mode which cant be blocked and the trailer controller has to be mounted level or as close to level as possible for proper function on the universal units I have installed at work.

I guess is does depend on what you are willing to spend. I just ordered and received a Hayes Genesis controller for my 2009 Flex Limited that has the factory tow package. This way I can use my tow dolly to transport the convertible for the exhaust system and any other work on my nice Master Tow dolly which has electric brakes. The Hayes Genesis does not have to be level, it can go up to -35° (control face upwards) and self adjusts once the brakes are applied. I can't use my old super reliable hydraulic actuated one that is on Darth.

I started looking on Amazon, but they do not have the Genesis, so I wound up on eTrailer again, eTrailer did not show the 1994-2011 Ford adapter harness, so found it on Amazon. Amazon popped up their "be sure this fits your vehicle" after I entered the PN Hayes gives for a Flex with factory tow package. Amazon told me that it wouldn't fit. I would think the people who made it know a little more than Amazon. One key question was not asked "with or without factory tow package". On the Flex this includes the wiring and an auxiliary fuse box in front of the main fuse box in which the relays and fuses are housed.

I've used trailers with surge brakes, including my boat trailer.  I don't mind them on a relatively lightweight trailer on a relatively heavy truck (like my 2500~3000 lb boat/motor/trailer behind my 6600 lb truck).  But when the trailer weight is approaching the truck weight I really prefer electric.

But with electric, make use you get a brake controller that's not the cheapy timer-based style.  It costs more to get the kind that use an accelerometer to decide how hard to apply the brakes, but it's well worth the extra $20.

It costs a lot more, like $40,000 more, to get the kind that are integral to the truck's braking system.  But you get a free truck with it, so it's not that bad really.  

Nothing Special wrote

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It costs a lot more, like $40,000 more, to get the kind that are integral to the truck's braking system.  But you get a free truck with it, so it's not that bad really.  

YES!  I paid $40k for safety and got a free truck!  

Bob, that is exactly why I bought the Hayes Genesis, it retails for around $100 but is a deceleration based unit. Years ago, a fellow employee at NNS and I brainstormed a strain gauged draw bar concept that would keep a fixed drag on the tow vehicle when the brakes were applied. I'm sure it could have been worked out and would have been excellent as long as the tow vehicle did not brake harder than the load being towed.

The Genesis is supposed to be "almost equal" to the older hydraulic actuated ones.

Bill - The "fixed drag" idea is a good one as it keeps the trailer behind the tow vehicle.  Compare that to surge brakes, which are happiest if there's no drag on the tow vehicle, so if the trailer jackknifes you have no "surge" to set the brakes.  But in your idea the "fixed drag" would cause the brakes on the trailer to come on and the two vehicles would be straight.

I really like that idea as I think about it.  You could dial in more or less drag and be assured that you'll stop straight, not matter the trailer or the load.  

Here's a good read on how the AOD's torque split works:

https://ateupwithmotor.com/terms-technology-definitions/split-torque-lockup-converters/6/

It's a lot to comprehend, but Ravigneaux based automatics aren't exactly the simplest transmissions in the world.

My understanding (going back to my original "AOD not good enough" post) was that since the AOD replaced the C4 and C5, it wasn't as strong as a C6 and thus on a torquey motor like my 300, is the weak link (and thus bottlenecks towing performance). Ford didn't specify on the chart though... perplexing.

Nothing Special wrote

I've used trailers with surge brakes, including my boat trailer.  I don't mind them on a relatively lightweight trailer on a relatively heavy truck (like my 2500~3000 lb boat/motor/trailer behind my 6600 lb truck).  But when the trailer weight is approaching the truck weight I really prefer electric.

But with electric, make use you get a brake controller that's not the cheapy timer-based style.  It costs more to get the kind that use an accelerometer to decide how hard to apply the brakes, but it's well worth the extra $20.

It costs a lot more, like $40,000 more, to get the kind that are integral to the truck's braking system.  But you get a free truck with it, so it's not that bad really.  

The unit I installed at work that stressed it had to be level was one of those, it stated that it cant be more than I think it said 5* for the accelerometer to work properly.

All the trailers I ever had were without brakes except for the latest for the new truck that has electric brakes and it pulls good and stops good.  Down side is you have to adjust the controller constantly where as with a surge brake its automatically adjusted if you unload the trailer and then tow a empty trailer home.

I personally looked at the electric over hydraulic before but it requires a unique controller and you cant simply use any electric trailer brake controller.

Rusty_S85 wrote

The unit I installed at work that stressed it had to be level was one of those, it stated that it cant be more than I think it said 5* for the accelerometer to work properly....

That's odd.  I've set up several brake controllers (and none of them has been a very expensive one).  All of them have had a way to compensate for being mounted at just about any "pitch" angle (the one in my truck is closer to vertical than it is to horizontal).

What is fairly important is that they aren't mounted with much "yaw".  They need to be aligned parallel to a line running front-to-back.

Rusty_S85 wrote

.... Down side is you have to adjust the controller constantly where as with a surge brake its automatically adjusted if you unload the trailer and then tow a empty trailer home....

True.  So far all of the trailers I've towed with electric brakes have had a fairly consistent weight (a couple different travel trailers and flat-towing my Bronco or the CJ5 I had before it) so I haven't had to deal with that.  But I still think I'd prefer electric brakes.  If you know what setting you need it's really quick and easy to change it.

Reviving this thread due to recent events.

My father-in-law is selling me his car hauler for "cheap". He's upgrading trailers, and I had to snap at the oppertunity.

The trailer is overkill (7000lb rated, one of two axles has brakes). Obviously I'll need to get a class III receiver and a brake controller. Any suggestions?

What do you have again? I see it in your sig.

I got my receiver off CL its a Reese TowPower fit all.

The brake controller I got through Northern Tool along with the pig tail that plugs into the controller and you splice the other end to the truck side.
Dont cheap out on the controller and get a timed one as they are junk in my book.
I have 2 that have a pendulum, the harder you brake the more it swings and applies more trailer brakes.
They also have a hand over ride so you can apply the trailer brakes with out touching the trucks pedal.

If I did not get the controller & receiver the way I did I would have gone thru https://www.etrailer.com/
That is were I got my other controller from, truck came with tow package so had the hitch and wiring.

I have not pulled my car trailer yet but the truck is all set up to do so if needed.
I use a weight distribution hitch (WDH) with my other truck (02 Durango) I ordered to pull my trailer.
I for see needing to use the WDH on the pick up as it is only a F100 and no over load springs out back.
The WDH also helps control sway but you still have to make sure the load (car or truck) is placed right on the deck of the trailer.

To far forward and even with the WDH you can drag the hitch.
To far back and you can get a lot of swaying that you cant control and the next thing you are on YouTube!
Dave ----

I have a Tekonsha 90195 P3 on Big Blue, and Clay probably does on Rusty as I put it there.  They have worked well for me.

Found a similar one on FB Marketplace. Will be looking at it after work. $40, has some surface rust (and supposedly came off an '85 bullnose!).

Unfortunately, I don't think I have a picture of the complete receiver setup on Darth. He has a V5 rated receiver that is integrated into the rear step bumper. Result being a massive chunk of bolted together steel on the back end of his frame. Original owner haul large horse trailers on that setup. I used a bed mounted 5th wheel hitch.

Not trying to be pedantic here or step on toes but load ranges are different for passenger vs. light truck tires.

If you have tires that have a load range rating of XL or "Extra Load", they are passenger car tires and XL is the top load range rating for them.

Light Truck tires have load ranges from A to F and if you have anything with a GVW of 8500 pounds or higher, your tire spec often dictates a load range of E. Stuff like a new F450 chassis cab will often come with tires rated in the load range of F. After F you get into medium duty truck tires which are commercial level stuff and the rating ranges change again.

This site from Tire America explains it pretty simply: https://www.tireamerica.com/resource/guide-to-tire-load-range

But the biggest reason you want to shy away from passenger car tires, even if they are rated XL and have load ratings that exceed your GVW or GCWR is sidewalls. Not because they are more stiff like someone else mentioned but because they have more materials and belting in the sidewalls.

That's important because as tires load down, the sidewalls bow out. This is a design feature that allows the tread block to stay square with the road offering the largest contact patch for traction and control surface area. The extra belting and materials in LT sidewalls helps control the tire's contact patch under heavy load. If you load the tire down too much, the sidewalls bow out too much. The only draw back is that your nice, cushy new F350 King Ranch might need load range E tires on it and unloaded, those E tires are going to be like basketballs running 45-65 psi. It'll make your squishy King Ranch bounce around like a 1950's Land Rover.

But back to overloading, at the point where the sidewalls are bowing exceesively, instead of having a vertical bow to transfer the vehicle load to the road, the load is sitting on the air pocket sandwiched between the two sides of the sidewall U. When that happens, as the tire rolls down the road, the carcass and rim bead will get stretched and then relax at a very frequent rate. They are not designed to do that.

So that means that layers of the tire carcass are now rubbing against each other inside the tire and that causes excessive heat to build up. Enough heat that the tire layers soften and melt enough that they will delaminate. That delamination leads to catastrophic failure (aka: a blow out) and at highway speeds with a heavy load, that's crazy levels of dangerous.

Infrequent use of the truck as a heavy hauler you can get away with slick looking, smooth riding, quiet passenger car tires. But if you plan to do any kind of heavy load hauling or towing then you should consider light truck tires with an adequate load range rating.


Side note, when you drive down the highway and see those huge chunks of tires and rubber on the sides of the road that was caused by the same type of load as exceeding your load rating on your tires. Those failures happened, though, from under-inflation. The truck drove down the road dragging a trailer that had a tire go down in pressure and as it heated up, it caused the tread plate to separate from the carcass which then whipped around until it disintegrated and the carcass blew open. It wasn't overloaded when it was properly inflated but it did get overloaded when the air pressure in the tire dropped to the point where the tire was now longer capable of supporting it's rated load and the sidewalls bulged just as if it was overloaded.

If you are driving down the road and passing an 18-wheeler, you can hear that separation starting to happen. It usually sounds like one tire is perpetually rolling down a rubber gravel road despite being on smooth pavement. Don't hang around next to that tire too long because it can, honestly, let go at any minute once it's making that sound. Those tire chunks are heavy and they will damage your ride or even you.

BTW, over-inflating a tire can cause it to stretch in the wrong way too which will also lead to failure.

So, TL;DR, tire load range ratings are important and so is the difference between passenger car tires and light truck tires.

Thanks for that info Jstas

In my 86 I have a Reese hidden controller but in the 80 and my dad's 00 2500HD we have Tekonsha 90160 Primus IQ's. No complaints with either.