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"Realistic" towing ratings

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ratdude747

"Realistic" towing ratings

Silly off-the-wall question:

Assuming I installed an appropriate hitch (not the bumper hole), On my F150 (Stock 300, AOD, 3.08 gears, stock brakes, no brake controller) what sorts of trailers could I haul safely on an occasional basis? Single car hauler? Tiny U-Haul cube?

I didn't buy or build it to tow... but it seems that when it comes to project vehicles, my inability to tow is a huge limitation on the kinds of deals to be had. Ideally I'd run a F250/350 with a stouter tranny (C6, E4OD) and a steeper rear end... but this is what I have.

Just curious.

Larry

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Gary Lewis

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

The specifications are on the page at Documentation/Specifications/Towing. That's what you can tow legally. Some may tell you "I towed 15,000 lbs with my F100", and while that is possible it doesn't mean it is safe. And, it certainly isn't legal. If you were to have an accident and you were beyond the specifications in the manufacturers documentation you could be charged and, probably, found guilty.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

HBF84

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

I agree with Gary and vetted it a bit with local law enforcement when I upgraded my rear end to improve towing. They said the rear end as depicted on the door panel tag would be what they would look at in a court of law independent of modifications from an ASE certified mechanic.

What the officer did not specifically say was if I had to follow the recommended numbers in the brochure or GCWR subtracted from Happy Blue Ford's actual curb weight and payload/passengers. GCWR-(CW+payload+passengers)=MaxTW

However, my insurance company said that as long as I didn't go over a combined gross weight of 18,000lbs, they would cover me and said it was ok to modify the rear end and tow more.

So, what to do? Well, I upgraded the rear end which may have been a waste of money. HOWEVER, the main reason to upgrade was to get a limited slip and by changing from a 3.08 to a 3.55 will help the venerable 300 I-6 will tow things much more easily while staying within the legal numbers.

1984 F-150 2wd short bed with 4.9L, 4 speed overdrive manual transmission, and 3.08 rear end (18) switched to the 3.55 limited slip (H9).

ratdude747

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Figured. RFTM, ratdude. DUH!

Looks like the answer is 5200 lbs in the best case (with a frame hitch and brake controller). Not terrible all things considered, but I am a bit dubious of this rating in respect to that I have an AOD, not a C6 (great for highway use, not so great for heavy hauling). Won't be towing another full size truck with it obviously... but good to know.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

old55pete

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

I wouldent give, and dont give, towing a second thought with an AOD trans. I do it all of the time. When you get to a hill, take it out of overdrive and let her eat. I towed a 73 Buick Riviera from north of San Francisco to Az that way and that same trans is still in service . Do, how ever, put a large trans cooler on it.

Steve
86 Bronco, XLT, 5.0 EFI, EEC IV, AOD, IFS, limited slip front and rear, 3.08 gears, Tilt steering, factory AC

ArdWrknTrk

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

I think stopping is a bigger concern than getting it moving.

My truck has 12x3" drums and very large ventilated rotors with dual calipers and a master cylinder with an 1 1/16 bore to displace enough fluid to actuate them.
A 250 HD/350 also has a larger booster and E rated tires.

If someone pulls out in front of you, or you're going down a long grade, with no trailer brakes and more than your curb weight pushing you there's little chance it's going to stop.

I've blown the friction off a pad with just a load of sheetrock in the bed.
Boy was I glad for a manual gearbox when that idiot short-stopped me.
They had no idea how close they came to being punted, hard.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

FuzzFace2

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Most states require trailer brakes on 2500 lb and more.
Now Uhaul has surge brakes on the larger trailers and car haulers so covered there.

When you looked up the weight rating was that for a ball mount only or WD hitch?
The WD hitch moves the weight off the rear of the truck back to the front steer tires.
It also makes for a more stable setup.
With Uhaul you don't get a WD hitch with the trailers.
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

85lebaront2

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Jim, you are exactly right, braking is more important then whether you can pull it. When we first got our 5th wheel in Feb 1994, I towed it with my 1977 F150 that I had installed a 390 and C6 in with a 3.25 9" rear. It towed the 8800 lb empty/ 10,000 lb loaded 5th wheel, but the first long run with it, up I-64 from Newport News to Gordonsville VA the rear brakes I had just redone burned up the linings. These were, of course, the early post asbestos ban linings so were "vegetable" material.

Ford must have learned something between the 1986 and 1987 models, my original rear brakes were 12X2 1/2" which surprised me, my fronts are the same big ventilated rotors with dual piston calipers. When I rebuilt the junkyard dually rear with the innards from the 1990 F250 parts truck, I found it had 12X3" rear drums and used those shoes as they were in excellent condition. It wasn't until later I found that the dually rear was built for 12X3 1/2" shoes which are on Darth now. He stops quite well for a 6400 lb empty vehicle.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ArdWrknTrk

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

In reply to this post by FuzzFace2

A weight distributing hitch does help get some of the weight off the rear tires and axle, but they're not cheap.

Bob (Nothing Special) did a good little write-up when he was discussing moving his parents camper back to their lot.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

You all would have loved this one. A few years ago I had to help my daughter move her stuff from a storage place in Virginia Beach to the house she had just rented in Chesapeake. I went to the U-Haul location in Chesapeake to get the largest trailer (preferably enclosed) they had. I already had my 2 1/2" ball on it's drawbar and a 7 pin to 4 pin adapter. When I got up to the counter the biggest one they had left was a tandem axle open cargo trailer. Of course they wanted tow vehicle information, when I said 1986 Ford F350, I got "we'll have to inspect your vehicle to be sure it can handle the trailer". I said sure, no problem. They sent a kid, who, at the time probably wasn't as old as Darth. We walked outside and he says "where's your vehicle?" I pointed to Darth, and his reaction was, that'll anything we have on the lot. U-Haul, of course, like many corporations is worried about liability, but their data base only goes back about 5 years.

I used a weight distributing hitch one time, I was moving a friend's camper up I-64 to a campground that was hosting a bluegrass festival. When I went to get it, I was told he had a hitch for it. He told me that "it's pretty heavy, so you need to set the ball up high enough". I did as he said, hooked up the trailer and raised the jack, Darth's bumper went down maybe 1/2", then he wanted to install the equalizer bars, I said no. I al least want to know it's back there. When I took it back, I put the adjustable hitch ball back down so it towed level, still didn't use the equalizer bars. I told them, that (a) mine was a Ford not a Chevy and (b) was a 1 ton truck with dual rear wheels.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

I've never even heard of a 2 1/2" ball on a receiver.

1 7/8, 2, 2 5/16".
I thought after that everything was a pintle hitch?

I'm sure there is bigger for a gooseneck.
But didn't think U-haul rented anything like that.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

LARIAT 85

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

In reply to this post by old55pete

old55pete wrote

I wouldent give, and dont give, towing a second thought with an AOD trans. I do it all of the time. When you get to a hill, take it out of overdrive and let her eat. I towed a 73 Buick Riviera from north of San Francisco to Az that way and that same trans is still in service . Do, how ever, put a large trans cooler on it.

THIS.

The AOD got a bad rap because people did not read their Owner's Manual or follow the "Towing Instructions" on the driver's side visor sticker. The overdrive band is designed for cruising, not towing. When you need to tow, use the "D" (OVERDRIVE LOCKOUT) gear and you should be just fine.

Lucille: 1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors: Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain: AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.

ratdude747

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Not to mention the dual input shafts... Forgot that in 3rd gear torque is split between the shafts; the inner direct shaft doesn't get full load until OD.

Forgot to mention: my brakes are recently rebuilt on the stock setup (other than ceramic pads in the front).

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

old55pete

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

And what about tires? I get it that you are not towing for a living and only want to tow when you need to. If you have P rated tires instead of LT (P= passenger, LT=lite truck). The weaker sidewalls of P tires can and will cause you trouble when towing. Most LT tires have heaver side walls that will handle the weight better. In most cases, you wont get the sway of death, that can and will jack knife and flip over the pickup and trailer.

Just more food for thought.

Steve
86 Bronco, XLT, 5.0 EFI, EEC IV, AOD, IFS, limited slip front and rear, 3.08 gears, Tilt steering, factory AC

Nothing Special

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

A weight distributing hitch does help get some of the weight off the rear tires and axle, but they're not cheap.

Bob (Nothing Special) did a good little write-up when he was discussing moving his parents camper back to their lot.

And here's the thread where that was if anyone cares. The weight distributing hitch discussion starts at the bottom of page 1, in a post dated May 15 at 8:04 AM.

Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins

ratdude747

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

In reply to this post by old55pete

Hankook Optimo. Marked "Extra Load", rated for 2183lbs @50PSI Max (per the tire stamp).

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).

Nothing Special

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

ratdude747 wrote

Hankook Optimo. Marked "Extra Load", rated for 2183lbs @50PSI Max (per the tire stamp).

As I understand, "Extra Load" is sort of a load range B+. Somewhere between B and C. At least that what I remember my local tire shop telling me when I was replacing the OE "Extra Load" Goodyear Wranglers on my '95 F-150.

85lebaront2

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

In reply to this post by ratdude747

AOD. 3rd gear is the innermost shaft to the direct clutch. It is splined to the front of the torque converter and is driven directly by the crank, in OD it is split 60% direct and 40% converter if I remember correctly. The AOD towing in 3rd is exactly like towing with a manual transmission. This is also why the throttle rod or cable adjustment is so critical to preventing damage, too much either way can burn it up or break something.

For those towing with an E4OD, big secret is a "tweak" to the computer forcing the converter clutch to stay engaged longer and connect earlier. With either a 460 or diesel let the engine's torque do the work. Mine is set for 80% throttle to unlock, which usually results in downshifting and locking up again. The actual gears are not where the heat comes from, it's the torque converter slippage.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

LARIAT 85

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

85lebaront2 wrote

AOD. 3rd gear is the innermost shaft to the direct clutch. It is splined to the front of the torque converter and is driven directly by the crank, in OD it is split 60% direct and 40% converter if I remember correctly. The AOD towing in 3rd is exactly like towing with a manual transmission. This is also why the throttle rod or cable adjustment is so critical to preventing damage, too much either way can burn it up or break something.

The AOD is unique in that it does not have a lock-up torque converter. And yet it can run without torque-converter action. Unlike all other transmissions, the AOD has TWO input shafts. They are concentric, one inside the other.

The smaller, removable secondary input shaft is tied directly to the torque converter’s shell and forward clutch. The larger, hollow primary input shaft is driven by the torque converter’s turbine (torque multiplication) in First, Second, and Reverse gears. Full torque converter action is available in 1st and 2nd gears, and is always there, like a C6 for example.

However, 3rd and 4th gears use the direct input shaft, so there is absolutely NO torque converter action in 3rd or 4th, no matter what. In other words, the smaller, direct input shaft connects THROUGH the converter, bypassing converter action completely. This is good for gas mileage. And since there is no clutch in the torque converter nor need to control one, the AOD is simpler.

Ford called this design "split-torque" because 40% of the engine’s torque goes through the torque converter as torque multiplication (via the impeller, stator, and turbine), while 60% goes through the smaller input shaft in Third gear. When the transmission shifts into Overdrive or Fourth gear, 100% of the engine’s torque goes through the smaller secondary input shaft as straight drive and lock-up in the gear-train and clutch pack. Tip in the throttle and the AOD goes into Third gear with the split-torque pattern. At WOT, 100% of the torque goes through the torque converter and hollow primary input shaft.

Capiche?

85lebaront2

Re: "Realistic" towing ratings

Administrator

I was thinking it was the other way around, but it's been years since I had the 1990 Town Car (gave it to my daughter in 2006 after her mother passed away and she needed a car).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

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