Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ArdWrknTrk
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A leak here is necessary.

IDK what you consider oversize.

3/8?
1/4"?

If it were me, and I wanted to close it up some, I'd probably hammer a shell casing in there and call it good with the primer pocket opening.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I think the cold side goes up to the carb and pulls in filtered air.  Doesn't it?  If so, I'd want to try to duplicate that and get the connection at the manifold as tight as possible.  But I've seen manifolds glow red, so I'm not sure solder will hold.  I think brazing would, but that takes a lot of heat.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
Why is a leak necessary? It's a closed system. One tube goes to the top of the carb (pulls filtered air from above the choke), the other goes into the choke coil assembly (and from there, to manifold vacuum). I don't want the tube rattling out and/or sucking in soot and other unfiltered crap around the mainfold port. I have the tube retained with a zip tie for now, but it's ugly and I don't trust it. Hence why I tried soldering it... wetting did make the tube thicker, but not enough to help once shoved in while hot (Without my hotter torch, I don't have enough heat to wet the solder to the steel/iron port).

Oversized enough that the tube isn't a press fit. I tried various tricks with my flaring set but none made something that would fit correctly. I removed the remains of the rotted away tube by drilling undersized (7/32") until the tube was fragmented (and removed the fragments) or the tube caught and spun out. The former happened here, and I suspect my drill chowdered the port while fragmenting the remains of the tube.

I don't have a 22; the only casings I have are 40's and 9's. Way too big.
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
See the post I was writing when you posted.

Here's some pics to illustrate the system:



(yes, my bench is a disaster right now. Been busy )

In detail:



This is the connection giving me trouble.



This one was a nice press fit.



These are the connections. The flare fitting on the left is where heated air goes to control the choke. The hose on the right is the filtered air source above the choke butterfly



This is how I made a flare to seal the hose better. Using my flaring set, I stuck extra tube out of the die, and lightly did the first operation of a double flare. Not pretty, but effective?
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by ratdude747
Sorry
I was interpreting your oversized hole in the manifold, as the air inlet from the carb.  

It's obviously not a closed system.
Air comes from the filter housing, through the stove, across the bimetal spring in the housing, to a port open to manifold vacuum.

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
*the exhaust manifold stove * is a closed system in respect to the manifold itself (no leaks per design, isolated from the exhaust gases or outside air). It's an open system once you get to the air filter obviously.
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
As it turns out, my steel timing gear is 100% stock:



Apparently the fiber gears weren't universally used until 1986. Go figure.

My gear has a slightly different number (E1TE 6256A2A), but ford part number convention, it's the right part, only a mass production part (from the "E" engine group), not a replacement part (from the "Z" service parts group). The "A2A" indicates that it's a couple minor revisions from the original 1981 part number, which for a 1983/1984 produced engine, would make sense.

Learn something every day. Things make a lot more sense now.
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Gary Lewis
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Actually, E1TE 6256-A2A is not a part number.  In Ford's infinite wisdom, as of 1965 numbers on parts are not "part numbers".  They are either ID or engineering numbers.  Which is why your number has an "E" and not a "Z" in the prefix.  And part number suffixes are usually single characters, like "A" and not "A2A", which is a sure sign of an ID #.

I have three books, courtesy of Bill/Numberdummy, that correlate ID #'s to part #'s.  I'll look up your ID # later and see what the part number actually is, but it will probably be E1TZ 6256-A.  (And one of these days I'll scan them and put them on here so everyone can find their part number from the ID number.)

In this snippet from the MPC I've circled the Part Number column and Description column.  Sometimes they'll put an ID # in the Description column, but didn't in this case.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
I get you. Probably the same part, just different ID's. The number I reported was cast into the gear. Not that it matters since I'm not replacing it; this was just to confirm that the engine is (probably) stock.

I deal with this with Toyota all the time (I'm an engineer for a Tier 1 Supplier). They do it (part/engineering numberr) as  "general number" - "ID number"-"revision-"dash code". The "dash code" indicates a singular master component, in my world (body shell stampings and assemblies), usually to call out a stamping that receives welded fasteners ("-99", usually) as a "complete" part/subassembly, before the fasteners are welded (raw stamping).

On the floor though, nobody uses them. Instead, they use the Kanban number (kanban is a paper tag used to ID a container of a part, used to manage inventory)... but that's only within our company. Toyota also uses Kanbans (hell, they invented them!), but they use a completely different numbering system that we only use when tagging containers about to hit a truck (pulled from inventory). Why? The Kanban is a letter and 3 digits, and is in big characters on the tags they use. Three "numbers", same part/assembly

Story time:

What ****s us up when we have an assembly we sell them, but within that assembly there are sometimes sub-assemblies called out and assigned engineering numbers, often that are made in-situ (within the same line that produces the main assembly). Mass production doesn't purchase them like that (unless it's used a la carte on a later vehicle design) ... but Service Parts sometimes does! When dealing with service parts made on current mass production equipment, this can sometimes be a confusing mess since half the time they invent new numbers (the whole "-99" thing, only in reverse, not every stamping with fasteners initially gets a sub-assembly number); usually, they just want the big stampings separately with any fasteners and brackets welded on (not an entire assembly which can contain several big stampings), but not always. In one case, we have an assembly that contains two sub-assemblies (one is a stamping with a critical reinforcement, the other was originally one stamping that was split in two due to being too "deep" to efficiently stamp)... but they're made in one fixture in two stations all at once. Surprisingly, all Service has ordered is the full assembly, not the sub-assemblies or raw stampings... thankfully, since we don't have a way to make the sub-assemblies by themselves (but if we needed to, it could be done, it's all just control system and robot programming that would need to change, which is what I do!). The other way this dicks things up is for parts we no longer make in mass production (typically, part production contracts include minimum 10 years of service part production after part leaves mass production)... people see the engineering number with a weird dash code and think "oh, they want stamping xxxxx, that dash is because it's discontinued", only to get a quality problem from service department because the fasteners they ordered were missing; that dash code was a poorly communicated  "new part" created for/by service! In one case, we apparently ****ed this up for 2 years before somebody on Toyota's end noticed... good thing we have a service part facility that can more or less weld anything! Sucks for the body repair techs who had to hand-weld nuts not realizing that was our goof, not theirs. Doh!
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Wow!  I understood most of that.  

Anyway, my 1985 Master Cross Reference List doesn't have ID # E1TE 6256-A2A.  Oddly enough, it has -A1A but not -A2A, so that had to come after my book was printed in April of '85?    But -A1A certainly is part number E1TZ 6156-A.  So that's surely the part number for -A2A since, as you said, A2A is only a revision.

Some day I'll scan all 1060 pages of this MCR, and however many pages in the earlier and later one as well, so everyone can cross-ref their ID #'s to part #'s.  But that's too much work right now.  Besides, no one really knows that #'s on parts are not part #'s.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by ratdude747
Good news: I made it through to the suggested shop and left my crank to get polished.

Bad news: I didn't like my crosshatch pattern on my hone job, and re-honed the cylinders. The pattern looks better, but now I can feel the "marks" seen previously (and also see that they like below the honed area). I also now see piston slap marks not previously visible.

I'm looking at a bore job, and a return/exchange on my pistons and rings?
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I does sound like a bore job is in the offing.  And therefore an exchange on the pistons.  But you'll also need the block hot-tanked as the shop probably won't work on it dirty.

In the long run this will be for the best since you'll effectively have a new engine.  But have them check the crank to ensure it is round rather than just polish it.  It won't cost much more and gives you the longest life on your bearings.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
This post was updated on .
A week has passed, and the guy will not pick up his phone or return calls/voice mails. He has my crank; I still have the block, head, and main bearing caps in the back of my Ranger (the bores have flash rusted a bit, but that will be bored out anyway). The ranger has a camper shell, so it's not directly in the elements. I know it's not good to be dragging it everywhere, but I'm too lazy to bother pulling it and re-mounting it to the stand.

I was told "it will be a few days"... I never was calling about the crank, I've specifically mentioned that I was calling to see about additional work. I kept professional, being to the point.

I drove past the guy's shop on Friday... but didn't go in since he doesn't have business hours and while somebody was there (truck with an open door, was gone when I passed again on my way home).

The good news is I more or less have 2 more weeks "off" ("working" from home). Expected to turn into 3 but no official word yet (Toyota and Nissan, my employer's customers, have to make that call). The bad news is my patience is wearing thin. I hope the guy is OK... otherwise, how hard is it to return a phone call? I hope I didn't tick him off without trying. Just trying to get things queued up...

In the mean time, I've painted my tins, and am out of things to do more or less. Ugh.
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Gary Lewis
Administrator
That's a bad feeling.  Been there, felt that.  Don't know if you need to keep calling, need to go by and talk to him, or if the damage is already done.

In my experience it has always worked out well.  It was something like he's hunkered down and someone else used his shop.  Or he just doesn't use the phone.  Or somesuch.

So hang in there, I bet it will work out.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
Yep. Pulled the block, head, and main caps inside last night... will lay low for a bit. What happens, happens. Worst case, I'm out a crank, and I go from there.
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
Heard back. He's been busy working on a house.

We're cool. I'll be dropping off the goodies tomorrow afternoon.

1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Well that's good news!  

Is he supplying components, or are you?

I'm up to my butt in rust and rot this afternoon, with no end in sight.
Back to the (literal) grind...  😐
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by ratdude747
Good news!  It is frequently something like this in the end, but while you are in the middle of it that's hard to understand.

If you have an option I'd consider having him supply the parts.  It may cost more, but he will get parts that work together.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

ratdude747
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
I was going to supply the parts... What I'll ask for is measurements on the crank and bores so I know what sizes to order (already mailed back the stuff to rockauto).

What he will do is (per a phone call):

-Polish the crank
-Hot tank and bore the block
-Hot tank and magnaflux the head

I'm thinking about having the cam bearings swapped as well. The camshaft bearing journals are in very good condition, which is why I wasn't going to mess with the bearings. At the same time, "there's no better time".

I'll re-lap the valves... the valve seats looked to be in good shape, so other than being full of carbon (and being dropped by dumbass here), I'm not worried about the head.
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: Lugging at speed/No power at WOT

Gary Lewis
Administrator
The hot tank will destroy the cam bearings.  And on the heads, you should consider new seals at least.  And see if the valves rock in the guides.  If so, they are worn.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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