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Dad's Truck Build

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scbill

Re: Dad's Truck Build

This edge should be facing the lubricant,
as for the U-joints hit em with a little brake cleaner and flat or satin black rust-olium....Bill

1983 F100 XL 300, 6 cyl, aod, long bed
1961 E100 pickup, 289,C4

Ford F834

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Ok, here's a pic of one of the lock-outs. I pulled the tape while the powder was still hot, so maybe that explains the tape marks. I'll leave the other one to cool and see what it looks like.

So how did the other one turn out? Did the colors separate any cleaner?

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

Bill - That makes sense, but it seems contrary to what the FSM says. Unless I am reading it incorrectly.

So, let me ask - which way do you think it means when it says "Install a new seal with the seal lip directed away from the spindle." What is "away from the spindle"?

As for painting the u-joints, I don't know that I want to bother. As Jonathan pointed out, they don't tend to rust. And the synthetic grease I'm using doesn't come off easily.

Jonathan - The second one came out about the same. They are acceptable, but to me the problem isn't the parting line but the uneven surface that the tape created on the black. I've not seen that before, so don't really know what happened. Perhaps it was because the black was actually in the oven three times, although the 2nd and 3rd times were at a lower temp and for less time.

All - No comments about the snap rings? How 'bout a better way to install that center u-joint?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

scbill

Re: Dad's Truck Build

That appears to be the inside of the hub, if so the lip would be pointed to the outside of the vehicle and toward the bearing/lubricant which would be away from the spindle. If the lip is installed toward the inside of the vehicle, the lubricant will sling out of the bearing area...."whew"

bill

1983 F100 XL 300, 6 cyl, aod, long bed
1961 E100 pickup, 289,C4

Nothing Special

Re: Dad's Truck Build

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

.... All - No comments about the snap rings? How 'bout a better way to install that center u-joint?

Gary, both of the retaining rings you show are "outside types" in that they both go over the outside of the piece with the groove that holds them. (edit to add: ... inside the yoke) The U-joints in the front axle of my '97 F-250 have "inside type" retaining rings that go in grooves inside the yokes (outboard of the bearing caps).

The retaining ring on the right in your picture is often called a full circle retaining ring (at least when people are talking about U-joints). It's considered a more secure way to retain them, but the yokes need to be machined to accept them (and they need to be installed differently obviously). Some aftermarket axles will be able to accept them, and some people modify axle to use them. But most people just use the "C" clip like you show on the left.

As to a better way to install the center U-joint, you're not going to like what I have to say. When I had to replace the U-joints in my front axle I removed the diff so I could do it on the work bench. So I'd suggest doing that U-joint before you install the diff. Since I'm too late with that suggestion I've heard of people using a balljoint press, but you see what space you have to work with...

edit to add: To be complete, with the front diff removed I then also pulled the right inner stub out of it so I was just working with the shafts when removing and installing the U-joint. But that part's trivial, it's getting the diff out that's a job.

And here's a picture of one of the U-joints I got out of my F-250 front axle (you can see that it was overdue). I was not able to get a lot of the "inside type" retaining rings out due to rust, so I had to cut the cross and then drive the caps inward. After that I could get the retaining rings loose. And the red "drawing" on the rag to the right of the U-joint shows the shape of an "inside type" retaining ring.

Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

On the seal, I think I understand.

As for the retaining rings, my bad on the terminology. Ok, "c-clips" are what this is set up for. I'll have to find some.

And, that is one rusty u-joint. YUK! That seems to be reason enough to paint these. Ok, back to the drawing board.

And I do NOT like the idea that I'll have to pull that diff to get the u-joints in.

I'm going to do my best to get them in with it still in the truck. It was way too much of an ordeal to get it in to even think about doing it again.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Nothing Special

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Gary Lewis wrote

.... And, that is one rusty u-joint. YUK! That seems to be reason enough to paint these. Ok, back to the drawing board.

That U-joint was likely the original, and the truck was 19 year old, with about 190K miles, and about half of that in the rust belt (Indiana before Minnesota, but New Mexico for the first half of its life). So it takes awhile to get that bad, but they will rust! Even the caps on that one were pretty ugly. So I think with the effort you are putting into the rest of the "ugly" parts of the truck that you're going to want to do something with them. (I just slathered the new caps and retaining rings with anti-seize. I'm not so worried about them being pretty,but I don't want to have to cut them out in another 19 years.)

Gary Lewis wrote

And I do NOT like the idea that I'll have to pull that diff to get the u-joints in. I'm going to do my best to get them in with it still in the truck. It was way too much of an ordeal to get it in to even think about doing it again.

Yeah, I don't blame you there.

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

The coffee has run out and it is time to quit procrastinating and get started.

But, taking the diff out is the LAST thing I want to do. I had bruises on my thighs for days from sitting that thing in my lap before I could get it hoisted up and into place. If I have to do it again I'll see if I can devise some way to lift it with the tranny jack.

So, I'll update y'all after a bit on the efforts.......

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Banned User

This post was updated on .

I don't think it's possible to install the middle U-joint when the stub shaft is in the diff & between the axle beams. And I wouldn't try.

The E-ring can be removed through the fill hole using long picks. Then the R-side stub shaft can come out like the L. If you build a snap ring to go on the R inner stub so it just pops into & out of the diff (like a common CV axle), it can be installed/removed much more easily than fighting that E-ring from now on.

If the front diff has to come out again...Then you can drop the L axle beam assembly, and lift the truck away. Then it's really easy to pop the diff off, re-seal & re-install it on the beam. But if you're only installing a U-joint in the R assembly, the diff doesn't need to come down just for that.

However... This is another good mod if it does come down:

Nothing Special

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Another option, either if you have the diff out or if you are able to remove the ring through the fill hole (but you probably can't get it all the way out through the fill hole...) is to leave the retaining ring out when you reassemble it. Then you can slide the shaft in and out freely without fighting with the ring or the case.

If you do that you need to come up with another way to keep the shaft from sliding out. When I put a LockRight in the front diff of my '95 F-150 I wasn't able to reinstall that retaining ring. So LockRight tells you to put a spring in the slip joint. That pushes the outer part of the axle out against the spindle and pushes the inner part in so it doesn't slide out. I can't say how well that holds up because I only had the LockRight in for 1 year. But that's the method they suggest, so apparently they think it's OK.

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

Dad's is a 1981 and has the D44 that uses a retaining ring. In other words, there's no clip inside the diff. You can read what I found on that topic on the Front Axles & Differentials and then the Dana 40 tab here: Driveline/Axles & Differentials.

But, you've pointed out that I should be able to pull the stub shaft out by pulling those three bolts - which I just torqued down yesterday. So, assuming I don't have to resort to the same pulling techniques I did originally, as written up on the above tab, it should be able to remove it, install the u-joint and next shaft, and easily re-install it.

Thanks!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Nothing Special

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Gary Lewis wrote

.... But, you've pointed out that I should be able to pull the stub shaft out by pulling those three bolts ....

Glad I could help (in spite of not knowing how I was helping)!

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

You and Steve suggested pulling the stub shaft, and while this one is a bit different than the one you were thinking of it came out fairly easy. So now I can put the freshly-painted u-joints in.

Here's what the stub shaft looks like on the early D44's. You can see the ring that holds it in with three bolts.

And, here's what the painted u-joints look like. (You should have seen the amount of tape I used on the outer axle shaft.) I'm going to let the paint set up overnight before I press them in.

And, here's what the whole front driveline looks like. Just put a diff between the two inner splined ends, and add another spindle to the left plus 3 more u-joints. And note the plastic slinger on the left/inner shaft, which is supposed to be 5" from the end of the splines.

And, here's the way I think the outer shaft, slinger, seal, and spacer go together:

Last, while I was waiting for paint to dry I did a bit of touch-up on the frame as well as the spindle studs. Here they are after a couple of coats of paint to ensure they don't rust. However, I will have to touch them up after the spindle goes on.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

Ok guys, I need some help. I can't find replacement c-clips for the u-joints. Or, at least I'm not sure I can find them.

The u-joints are Spicer 5-760X, and everywhere I look online those should come with c-clips. But Vernon appears to have removed them and replaced them with the full-circle snap rings, which cannot be used w/o machining the shafts to accommodate them.

I've found online Dorman 81025 that has 4 c-clips and 4 of the clips that go in the end of a yoke to retain the cap externally. But, even Dorman's site doesn't say what size they are. Instead it says they are "universal". Unfortunately O'Reilly's didn't seem to have them to check size, although I didn't have the part number at the time so maybe overlooked them.

If the weather allows the local parts places to open tomorrow, which is iffy, I'll call around to see if anyone has them and check for size. But do any of y'all know of a source for the c-clips themselves?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

grumpin

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Those C Clips are hard to find all right.

Found this: https://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-133042-dana-30-dana-44-u-joint-spicer-5-760x.html

And may want to read this, some possible substitutes: https://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1057387

I wouldn't think they would be hard to find. If some one has that Dorman kit local, you may be able to make that work.

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

Thanks, grumpin. The East Coast outfit might sell me just the clips. So I can call them Monday if I don't find them before then.

As for the Naxja thread, I'd read that. But it is very confusing and it appeared that what they found weren't exactly the right size. Or, did I read that incorrectly.

And yes, if I can find the Dorman kit locally at least I'll know if they are the right size. Oddly enough, Summit as the kit for $4.99 plus shipping and Amazon has it for $8.25 with free shipping. Summit's total is $22.96 for the 3 kits I need, and Amazon's is $24.75 and I can have them Wednesday.

We shall see.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

grumpin

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Gary Lewis wrote

Thanks, grumpin. The East Coast outfit might sell me just the clips. So I can call them Monday if I don't find them before then.

As for the Naxja thread, I'd read that. But it is very confusing and it appeared that what they found weren't exactly the right size. Or, did I read that incorrectly.

And yes, if I can find the Dorman kit locally at least I'll know if they are the right size. Oddly enough, Summit as the kit for $4.99 plus shipping and Amazon has it for $8.25 with free shipping. Summit's total is $22.96 for the 3 kits I need, and Amazon's is $24.75 and I can have them Wednesday.

We shall see.

No, I skimmed that article and noticed several "opinions" on the size.

I seem to remember having clips like the kind you're looking for, that were a little too big. And I think I was able to file down the part that touched in the middle and get them to fit.

HTH!

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

I know that two steps forward and one backward is still progress, but when you have the step backward right out of the gate it doesn't bode well.

I started assembling driveshaft parts by installing u-joints, and the first two things I joined weren't supposed to joined.

So, the question became how to remove the u-joint w/o messing up the powder coating. A bit of trial and error found that this arrangement worked a treat:

That's a piece of 2x4 w/a 2x2" hole milled in it. (Yep, it is amazing how quickly an end mill cuts through a piece of wood.

) The 1/4" plate on top spreads the load of the press, and out the cap came.

Then I started assembling the right pieces and discovered that is very difficult w/o the c-clips. In every case one cap was willing to go in but the other wasn't. So the willing one got shoved back out w/o the clip to stop it. Luckily I had 3 clips left and made 3 more by breaking the ears off the snap rings that were in the boxes.

And that allowed me to get everything together, albeit with some self-induced difficulty. You see, I was adding a bit of lube to each cap. But when I was then installing things I was having difficulty getting the last little bit of movement to install the 2nd clip. Then I found a little piece of paper in one box that said not to add any grease. And, sure enough, the next u-joint went together nicely.

Also, I called O'Reilly's and they have 3 of the Dorman kits on order and they should be in tomorrow afternoon. If they are the right ones then I can install them and then install the front driveline. If not I'll call the outfit Grumpin found and see if they'll sell me some.

Anyway, here's the driveline awaiting the clips as well as some cleanup and touch up.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

grumpin

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Wow! Good work! Nice tool!

I had a bad u joint on my Bronco's rear drive shaft, the double Cardan Joint. Talked to my old mechanic and he said just get a rebuilt one from a parts store, they're a pain. He was swamped.

Nobody had one, and none listed anywhere. Took it to a local driveline shop, they finished it that afternoon for $110.00, painted and all. I was happy.

Instead of fighting it, next bad u joint, and the drive shaft goes there!

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: Dad's Truck Build

Administrator

Thanks!

If it hadn't been for all the powder coating and painting I might have taken this elsewhere. But I doubt they'd be kind to the paint/powder, so needed to do it myself. And if the c-clips fit tomorrow I'll be a happy camper.

Still need to find a repair kit for the Mile Marker hubs as one of the o-rings is damaged. And MM doesn't show one for that hub on their site so I'll need to call them tomorrow. Meanwhile I can lube the wheel bearings and button up all but the lockouts.

After the driveline is installed I need to do the sway bar. And then maybe the brakes and brake lines. Then, I should be ready to install an engine and tranny.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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