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Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Not as bad as that French thing, it has right at 180° wrap, and when the steering is against the stop it still tries the slip the belt.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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I'm rethinking going with a Chevy reservoir unless it has the stud on the back of it for the brace. Look at the bottom mount on the Sag bracket - in the yellow circle. Yup, the tip has been welded back on. And Huck's bracket was broken there as well. Granted it is a C2, but the design is pretty much the same.

Perhaps there's a problem w/o the brace?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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I would think the problem without a brace would show up at the mounting holes for the pump itself, but it's hard to say what would happen. In your case Gary, I would think that a second reservoir return would be cleaner and simpler than a remote reservoir (which would still need a second return added to it?). In my case it ~may save me from having to hack the bracket, but I'm looking at the nipple at the top of the can and wondering if I would have to cut the bracket anyway to run the hose to it... there might be room if I welded in a 90*? The other reason some might want a remote reservoir is additional capacity and cooling, but I just don't think that's necessary. I pulled hydroboosts from 1989, 1993, and 1996 F450 F-Supetduty trucks and they were all engineered with a regular C2 pump and only the "loop" down by the crossmember for cooling. I think adding a filter and a finned cooler because for off road type driving should be plenty.

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2

85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, I would say they were both probably broken by some of my friends, Hamm Phist, Jack Legg and Shayde Tri (he's Vietnamese). If you aren't familiar with these engines and trying to either do things in a hurry (like R&R the left head in situ as the Brits say) I can see how that little tab could be broken easily. There are exactly 5 fasteners on that casting to mount it to the engine, 4 are 7/16-14 bolts into the head, the other is a single 3/8" bolt into the water pump near the inlet. Another possibility is someone who should never have touched it (Vernon's "mechanic" comes to mind) left the separator plate behind the water pump out, it would very likely snap that thin ear when the bolt was tightened.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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As I think about it I agree with Bill - the problem with breaking the casting is probably mis-alignment between the bracket and the water pump. With those 4 big bolts above into the block and head nothing is going to give up there. And since it is a casting, there's no flex. Something has to give, and the "give" is at the end of that tab.

So, maybe there isn't a problem w/o the support bracket. But I agree with you, Jonathan, that a second return should be pretty simple. However, I would rather braze one in than weld it as I can do a water-tight brazing job but I'm not sure I can weld it that well. I'm sure you could braze in a 90 degree fitting.

I also agree that a filter and a cooler should be adequate w/o the remote reservoir. I wouldn't mind having another of the 460 tranny coolers like Bill posted the pic of recently. It would look right at home on the radiator support, so if you run across one in your salvage runs.....

Bill - It easily could have been Vernon's "mechanic". The one that didn't put in the valve cover gaskets, left the exhaust against the frame, and ran the fuel lines w/in an inch of the headers.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Ok, it looks like Bill wins the prize. And, having test-fit the brackets on Huck's engine I'm now quite comfortable that the problem is not an un-supported power steering pump but a "mechanic" that should be un-supported.

Here's Huck's original C2 bracket installed - without the tip, which is long gone:

And here's the unbroken C2 bracket that Jim sent me off the 1995 F450. However, these two brackets have the same ID # on them, so they are the same. This distance is .125", and that cast bracket isn't going to flex anywhere near that much, so it'll break right at the corner where all the forces get concentrated.

Bill said that the guy probably left off the backing plate on the water pump. Anyone see a backing plate here?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Idk how you can run a 460 *without* a backing plate.
I got a new one when I changed my water pump because it's not worth going through that *again* for $30.

There is nothing for the impeller to push against.
Not to mention other open cavities in the timing case.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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I was wondering the same thing. Yup, they did it:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Well, the thickness of the plate and the *other* gasket on the other side of it explains the 'extra' 1/8"....

Where is the facepalm emoji????

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I wonder how they got it to hold water, if you look at the timing cover there is a hole through into the inside of the block.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Yes, Jim, we need that emoji. Or, the dope-slap.

Bill - I don't know how it held water.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Damn, that guy must get around, probably says he specializes in 460s

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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From at least Florida to Oklahoma.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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In reply to this post by Ford F834

Well, I pulled the C2 pump out of the IDI serpentine bracket and I have to say that the prospect of getting a Saginaw in there is not looking too good...

The bracket feels thin and fragile to me. I don't think it is robust enough to cut a lot of the walls away, and by eyeballing a Saginaw next to it I'd say most of the walls would have to go. Even if I used a remote reservoir one, the flat spot on the bracket would have to be removed...

The space is so darn tight I just don't know if I can fit the Saginaw with the crimped lip reservoir canister without compromising the strength of the bracket. I'm not throwing in the towel just yet, but like I said, it's not looking good. I may end up back converting to V belts.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Most of the pics in the first post of this thread show the bottle necked reservoir instead of the canned ham style.

I've never compared the two but perhaps that is the answer.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Jonathan - It does look like a lot of the bracket would have to be cut away, and that would weaken it. In your pics do you have it about where you think it needs to go to get the pulley lined up?

Maybe Jim is right that the other reservoir would work. Or maybe the remote reservoir?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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I don't think the necked reservoir would make all that much difference, or even the remote reservoir. They all have the same diameter cast iron pump center. That circle plus the crimped reservoir edge does not look like it will fit, especially regarding the flat spot on the bracket. I'm not even sure the ultra rare Cardone would be able to bolt in there. I was holding the pump approximately where it needs to mount. As you can see there would not be much bracket left and it feels quite thin. It's not over until it's over, but it's not looking good. There are other types of remote reservoir Saginaw pumps but they are for cars, and I don't think that's what I want for a F350 with hydroboost.

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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I've read that there were many different Saginaw pump capacities as well as pressure settings, so I agree that I wouldn't want to use one from a car on an F350.

But v-belts aren't bad. I'm planning to run them on Dad's truck since there's no serpentine setup from Ford for the M-block. However, since I have two sets of serpentine 460 pulleys, why can't I put them on an M-block and convert that way?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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You know, someone suggest that on FTE, and was told "I don't want to drill holes in the expensive aluminum heads". What changed your mind?

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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In reply to this post by Ford F834

One item, Hydroboost on cars, I have owned 3, a 1978 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale, a 1980 Pontiac Bonneville Brougham, and a 1981 Buick LeSabre. All had the 5.7L Diesel and GM decided the Hydroboost was a better solution than a vacuum pump. They did have vacuum pumps for cruise control and HVAC operation.

On Saginaw pumps, the pressure is actually determined by the flow control valve which incorporates the relief valve also. From what I remember on the Oldsmobile, the basic pump was the same, just had two return fittings and a different flow control valve.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

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