Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
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I was hoping to just replace the v-belt pulleys with serpentine pulleys.  No change of brackets and no holes to drill.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
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Bill sent me a couple of pdf's regarding Saginaw pumps, which got me to wondering what I could find.  With some searching I found one of the two he sent as well as a couple more and put them in the Suspension & Steering folder in the Resources section.  (Bill - I'd put the other one there if I knew where to find it.  I have found it in a slightly different guise, but prefer the one you sent.)

Also, along the way I organized the Suspension & Steering folder as it was loooooong and hard to fathom.  Please see what you think.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

85lebaront2
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Which one couldn't you find?
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Ford F834
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In reply to this post by Ford F834
There may be hope for me yet... I went to the junkyard and found a pump that is probably as good as it is going to get. The donor was a1986 Chevy/GM 6.2 diesel one ton dually with hydroboost and a remote reservoir  type canister. It more or less fits into the space on the IDI bracket, but with the reservoir barb pointed up the shaft is not centered. This might be okay if I could find a slightly shorter belt. Otherwise, rotating the pump about 60* provides better centering as long as all the hoses still reach and clear.


C2 pump for comparison









For one, I will probably have to make my own adapter to get the clocking right. The horseshoe one from PSC is a crapshoot whether it will orient it the way I need. The other problem is the pulley. I grabbed one from a 1989 E150 straight six van. The offset is reflexed back toward the bracket compared to the IDI one and it just won't work. But one thing I learned today is just how many Saginaw pumps there are on GM and Dodge vehicles, so I have about a bazillion pulleys to choose from. I just need to find one with an offset that will work with my shaft stick out after an adapter thickness.



The other problem is the remote reservoir. The donor's was MIA at the junkyard. I pulled one from a remote reservoir C20 van, but the barb and hose is considerably smaller. Not a huge deal, there is nothing esoteric about these. It's just a can. I can possibly modify this one if I can't find one with the right barb.



One interesting thing is the hydroboost unit looks pretty much identical to the Ford one, and may be made with many of the same parts. It looks like the high pressure line from the Saginaw may bolt right on, with no need to have special hoses made.  New ones are available on RockAuto for $15-20 range, way cheaper than what I did on my I-6. I will report back on this once I try to bolt it up.



It routes over to the driver side instead of the passenger side but clears nicely.



Gary, sorry I didn't find any hydroboost Silverado with two returns. There was only one Durango with a vertical cooler but it was quite different and had long hard lines running to it. I will have to check the other yard.

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Jonathan - That's good news!  And, it fits with what I've been reading in the new links in the resources folder.  In other words, there are lots and lots of different orientations for the reservoir, different return sizes, etc.  But the basic pump is the same.  So, it should be easy to find a combo that works.

As for the cooler, I'm not in a hurry.  But one of the Durango ones could work if hose barbs and hoses were used.  Granted tubing would be better as it would help cool and wouldn't deteriorate due to the heat, but it is much harder to run.

In any event, I am not in a hurry.  So figure your part out and just keep and eye out for "the right thing" for me.  And thanks.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Ford F834
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In reply to this post by Ford F834
No pictures just yet but I revisited the junkyard and found that the pulley on the V8 vans is different and may work. The Chevy pulleys were a good bit larger in diameter (the ones I checked, there are a bunch), and the Ford van one seems to have to have the flattest profile/ hub closest to the back edge of the pulley grooves.

I also found another 6.2 Chevy diesel RV there and it had the reservoir with the bigger outlet. So that piece is found.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but in case I just can't make this work I found a V belt IDI school bus and I grabbed the bracket and pulley. I'd hate to miss these and have to chase them down later. I guess the bracket may be the same as some 460's and possibly some of the Windsor's used it too, but I know this one's right. I found other things but I will talk about them in other threads...
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
Administrator
It is always good to have contingency plans, so getting the v-belt brackets was a good move in my book.

As for pulleys, I'm thinking the offset will be somewhat critical, and that will vary with the amount of spacing you have from the bracket to the pump.  So the pulley decision may be the last one to make.  But, there probably aren't an infinite number of offsets available, so the pulley options have to be taken into account when determining the spacing.

Anyway, good job on the reservoir.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Ford F834
Administrator
The pulley spacing is everything. However, it is easy to adjust to the rear with spacers, so my goal was to find the most forward pulley I could find to give me the most forgiveness with adapter thickness etc., I think it can be "spaced" forward by not pressing the pulley completely on (as they talked about in the explorer thread) but I don't want to play that game if I don't have to and I wouldn't fudge it as much as that guy did. But if I need to shift it a little to get the right alignment/stand off I will do that. Flushing the tip of the hub to the tip of the shaft is somewhat arbitrary.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

85lebaront2
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These may help a bit for V-belts, this is a Saginaw pump on a 1987 Chrysler LeBaron sedan 2.2L turbo engine. I have the pump here but will need to go dig it out if you need measurements.



You can see the pulley is dished outward even though the PS is the innermost belt.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Ford F834
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In reply to this post by Ford F834
One unfortunate thing about the 6.2 remote reservoir is that it is just a fill tank. It only has the outlet to the pump and no return to it so it does not circulate. Not a big real I suppose, it seems like something GM did on vehicles where the pump was difficult to access for maintaining the fluid level. It would be better though if it had a return and circulated through the system.

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yes, that really isn't huge advantage.  And, depending on how busy it gets under Big Blue's hood with the second battery, coolant reservoir, EFI air inlet tubing/air cleaner, and power distribution box lining the driver's fender, there may not be room for that.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

85lebaront2
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In reply to this post by Ford F834
The G30 I worked was the same way. My 1995 Lincoln Continental has a remote reservoir that the fluid return goes to. The Ford CIII pump is on the side of the block on the right front of the car and the PS lines literally circle the powertrain. It is a plastic tank and FWIW (Gary Lewis) there is a factory installed filter in the return line. My Chrysler T&C minivans (2003 & 2005) had the reservoir on top of the engine with a fine mesh strainer molded into it. When it got dirty the pump whined horribly. On these the return goes to the reservoir and the pump then draws from it. The 3.3 and 3.8L pumps are aluminum, but the 2.4L is cast iron and looks like a Saginaw with the small can and remote reservoir.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

85lebaront2
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Some pictures for your edification. These are from the 1993-94 truck service manuals on DVD (I just have the iso files).
Power steering pump installation, 7.5L MFI engine


Power steering pump and reservoir, Econoline RV stripped chassis


Power steering pump installation, 4.9L MFI gasoline engine


Power steering pump installation, 5.0L and 5.8L MFI gasoline engines

Yes, it needs a brace on the 460 and possibly others, it is item 3C718 in the pictures.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - Thanks for those pics.  I do see the brace on the 460, but not the others.

However, I also see that the van had a remote reservoir that was apparently connected to a cap with a nipple.  Right?  So, with the right cap and reservoir I could mount it wherever I have room - assuming that reaching the cap on the pump itself isn't going to happen easily.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

85lebaront2
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Only the stripped chassis for an RV, the captions the way the manual comes out are way above the pictures, the caption for the first picture was on the bottom of what would the cover page for the section Since they were small enough once I scanned them, I just posted them as they came out. The biggest thing, with the 1988-89 E-Series it should list that brace on the CD, now you just have to find one, maybe a new unicorn? I will try to check next time I get to Pete's.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
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I have the brace that Jonathan sent with the pump and bracket  Came from an E350.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Ford F834
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In reply to this post by Ford F834
Time for an update on the Saginaw situation now that I have measurements from a pulley off of a 1989 351W Econoline. The results are not as favorable as I would like, but I still think I have options to make this work. I will give the result first and then walk through the math.
 
If I were to be able to mount the two forward Saginaw bolt holes flush with the existing inside bracket bosses for the C2, (and I pressed the pulley hub flush with the pump shaft tip) the belt plane would be 0.0125” forward of the others. (Let’s just call it zero given the measurement techniques). This does not jive with the thread that talks about having to space the whole pump 5/8” back for pulley alignment. Maybe there is a better pulley to be had (with less rear offset that would allow for a spacer/adapter) but I have not found one yet… the take home point is I have no space for an adapter like the PSC horseshoe unless I don’t press the pulley all the way on.
 
The math is as follows: Let’s start with the pumps. I measured from the shaft tip to the bolt mounting faces. I measured the forward pair on the Saginaw:
C2: 2.350”
Sag: 2.800”
 
Next I measured the pulley bore depth, from the tip to the inside rim of the hub:
C2: 0.750”
Sag: 1.000”
 
Next I measured the offset from the rear pulley face to the inside rim of the hub:
C2: 0.500”
Sag: 0.750”
 
I noticed that with both pulleys flat on their backs, the plane of the belt ribs did not match. The Saginaw has a thinner rim and sets the belt plane 0.0625” closer to the pump.
 


The thickness of the bracket measured at the bosses for the C2 bolts is 0.350” and prior to removal the space between the pulley and the bracket face measured 0.750”.

So for the C2 the math is 2.350” mounting face to shaft tip, minus 0.750” bore depth minus 0.500” offset, minus 0.350” bracket thickness = 0.750” space between the pulley and bracket.

For the Saginaw 2.800” mounting face to shaft tip minus 1.000” bore depth minus 0.750” offset, minus 0.350” bracket thickness plus 0.0625” (for the different rim thickness) = 0.7625”

Note: the Saginaw pump body mounting bolt holes are M10-1.5

With a bore depth of 1.00” I could potentially get away with not fully seating the pulley. So one option would be to try to fashion an adapter (1/4” thick?) that would fit between the pump and the bracket. The bracket would have to mount to the pump with counter sunk cone headed Allen bolts, and the adapter would have to be tapped to accept bolts through the three C2 holes in the bracket. The bolts would have to be very short and secured with thread locker.

Another option would be to put a steel plate on the outside of the bracket (between the pulley and the bracket face) and use counter sunk Allen bolts to go all the way through into the pump body. The bracket would be sandwiched in between. The tricky part would be fastening the steel plate to the bracket, since there might not be room for fasteners on the back side where the C2 holes are. But if necessary new holes could be drilled. I feel that with this design one would have to use exact spacers between the pump and the steel plate to ensure that the shaft stayed perpendicular to the belt plane.

I am open to whatever design ideas and input you may have. Gary, this kind of comes full circle to your original comment about welding in a piece of aluminum plate. My concerns are still strength since the bracket is so thin, combined with the fact that there is essentially zero room to add any kind of reinforcement. It occurs to me that getting the mounting plane exactly right may be difficult. This is potentially the cleanest solution, but also the furthest from my comfort zone as far as what I have experience doing.

I will close with one last stray picture that I took of my power steering fluid cooler that I pulled from a 1999 F250 Super Duty.

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
Administrator
First, I like the cooler.

Now, for the pump.  Your measurements seem to confirm what I found earlier - that there's no way that the Sag pump needs to be set back 5/8" given the pulley you have.  But, let me measure the pulley I have and see if they are the same.  Maybe I can do it this afternoon.

In fact, is there a number on your pulley?

If our pulleys are the same, meaning the 351W's and 460's used the same pulleys, then maybe there aren't other pulleys with different offsets to be had.  But, what about boring a C2 pulley to fit a Saginaw's shaft?  Or, turning a Saginaw shaft down to accept a C2 pulley?

Would the C2 pulley give us enough room to install a spacer?  If I understand your measurements correctly there's 1/4" more offset on the Saginaw pulley vs the C2 pulley, so that would give us room for a 1/4" spacer - right?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Ford F834
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In reply to this post by Ford F834
Gary, I have good enough pictures of both pulleys that I can read the number on them (E7UA3D673FB). They are the same between the 351 and the 460. The straight six is way different in the undesirable direction. The common Chevy pulley is also worse, and the diameter is larger which will complicate finding a belt that would work. Looking at the C2 pulley I would say that thinning out the hub that much is playing with fire. The notch that the puller sits in might not be strong enough to pull it back off once you press it on. Turning down the pump shaft would probably work, but that is highly precision machine work and won’t be cheap. Then you won’t have an off the shelf pump if/when it needs replaced. Nothing about this is ideal, so I guess I have to pick my poison as far as which evil I want to contend with.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I know a machine shop that does work pretty cheaply for special friends.    But, I'd have to look at the Sag shaft to see if it can even be chucked up in the lathe.  So, that's a possibility, but it does create a one-off that would require the pump to be rebuilt rather than replaced.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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