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Lost and cornfused

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85lebaront2

Re: Lost and cornfused

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I am going to add my experience with Chineseum parts. I will not buy any of these eBay specials. I made my living for a number of years first in my own shop and later working in a Dodge, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, MG and Dodge Import dealership. I learned that OEM parts or at least OEM quality is more important than price. I had some aftermarket, no-name parts that were every bit as good as OEM. If you had walked in my shop and I didn't know you, you would get a fair price, a warranty on the work and if requested OEM parts, which I did stock in depth, if I knew you, you would get the OEM equivalent parts at a substantial saving. If you were just looking for parts same thing. Since I guaranteed the repairs I was not going to use something that would come back to bite me.

Specific example, Ford 2100 2 barrel carburetors, we had to stock 3 different name brand kits due to the volume of work, Motorcraft CT499D, Carter 902-857D and Standard 77-857D. These sold at the time for around $7.50 retail, I also had the identical kits in a plain poly bag that I payed $2.00 each for. If I used one of these on a customers car, I would charge $7.50 for it, if you were a good customer and wanted one. $3.50 is what you would pay.

There was absolutely no way I could or would use inferior quality parts. This is the reason for my comments, that and trying to find parts for many cheap aftermarket equipment with no support.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Ford F834

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs

Hello, William, if you are still following I hope you will reconsider leaving. I joined Gary’s forum because I knew the members here were good people. Knowledgeable about Fords, yes, but also supportive, and generous with their time to help others. Some folks may get a little passionate about their side of a debate, but none of the regulars here that I have come to know online are unkind or rude. I think that the responses in this thread demonstrate that the family of members does care, and has a strong moral compass about how we treat one another.

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2

Hstrymkrs

Re: Lost and cornfused

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Out of respect for Gary and a few others, I would like to comment. Attempting to gain knowledge is often difficult when researching something that is long past it's prime.

There are no hard feelings on my end, I just don't want to scroll and read through insults, intended or not, to find an answer. That is what all the other forums provide.

I appreciate those who are trying to help. I will make the disclaimer that I do not buy cheap stuff and hope it works. I do not take the easy way out and hope it works. I research and buy quality on a limited budget. All of these "hobbies" are money puts if we let them become one.

The D.U.I. distibutor is made by Performance Distributors, and they are made in the USA from what I read. They tune each distributor when it is ordered to the specs given them by the purchaser based upon engine and mods. This way, the timing curve is set for the specific engine and its cam, carburator, etc. They warranty their work and they are located in Tennessee. It isn't cheap, but I must be honest in that it seems a better option than raiding a junk yard for 30+ year old parts. I have nothing against the DS-II or the OEM for these year models. I will admit they are large, but there is plenty of room. In the end, either option is a gamble hence the research.

I am not thinned skin, and people are free to disagree with me. No need to walk on eggshells. I just don't have the time for pettiness and put down comments.

Again, there are no hard feelings or ill will. I just enjoy working on vehicles and helping people. Something I hope we all agree on.

William

1985 Ford Bronco XLT, 4.9L, NP-435 transmission, NP0208 transfer case, 3.55 limited slip rear end,TTB Dana 44 with 3.54

Gary Lewis

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

William - We are on the same page. All around.

From what I know of DUI, they are a good company with good parts. Tim Meyer was excited to be working with them, and although that didn't pan out it wasn't because of their parts being inferior. So finding someone that dials in the dizzy to your engine and has good parts is a plus. I say go for it.

Which then begs the question of whether or not you understood Jim/ArdWrknTrk's directions on how to wire up the relay? If not, I can draw it up if that would help.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

Good that you are going with an American built unit. One thing to examine, I do not know if it applies to the six cylinder version or not. My son was at the Carlisle All Ford meet a couple of years ago and someone up there had one of the HEI units on a carbureted 460. It quit on him in the parking lot. In order to make a "universal" unit for the Ford V8s, the distributor drive was a two piece shaft with a short lower piece with the gear and oil pump drive and a slot for the distributor shaft. The roll pin in the lower had sheared. Ford frequently used double wall pins on theirs.

Good luck with it, definitely you will need the relay for the current draw of an HEI system, I had to put one on a friends six cylinder Chevy he converted to a junkyard HEI unit.

Carburetor, as Gary pointed out, you will need to either "neuter" the entire system or remove it. If you can find an early (pre-emission) carburetor for it, they are larger than the emission ones. It isn't so much external as it is a larger venturii and possibly throttle body.

If you look at the EVTM for 1986 trucks, and 1985 is probably very similar, under ignition systems, you will see that there is an unresisted 12V feed used on the TFI ignition and a resisted feed for the DS-II along with a cranking bypass unresisted 12V feed to the DS-II coil. The TFI feed is the one you need and use it to control the relay, but, be sure it doesn't lose power in the start position. If you use the paired feed to the TFI system it has two power sources due to the two different ignition systems, the red with light green and the white with light blue are tied together in the TFI (EEC) harness, on a DS-II they are separate as the coil is fed through a resistance wire between the white/light blue and red/light green wires in the main harness, If you keep enough of the exiting harness to the TFI coil feed and use that wire for the relay control it will work just like the TFI or DS-II systems as far as powering the ignition system.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

Bill - You raised an interesting point, and one I think we need to capture on a page on the website not just here in the forum. And that is that the white/light blue wire has 12v in Run, regardless of which ignition system is in the truck, meaning EEC or DS-II. So, it is the right place to get power for things like the choke heater or the relay for a one-wire ignition.

But before I start writing this up, including a relay diagram, let's make sure I understand what you are saying and vice versa. Below is the 1985 DS-II wiring diagram, with the W/LB wire, Ckt 20, circled in red. In this case that wire is ahead of C321, the other side of which a red wire that is going to power the DS-II module. (The 1986 diagram is essentially the same, but I've chosen the 1985 as it shows an option for the idiot light, which the '86 doesn't since they were eliminated for '86.)

And below that there's the 1985 EEC wiring, again from the '85 EVTM, for the same reason. And again I've circled the white/light blue wire, although this time it is after C321 since the color carried through that connector. Anyway, it is going to the coil in the EEC system, and this was also true for the other engines with EEC.

The bottom line of this is that I believe the white/light blue wire is the go-to source of 12v in Run, regardless of what ignition system is currently in a Bullnose truck. So it is good to run small-current things like the choke heater, or to pull in a relay to power large-current things like an HEI ignition.

If we all agree with this then it would seem like a page to 'splain this and provide a wiring diagram for said relay and ignition would be helpful. THOUGHTS?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

It's good that the EVTM shows how the red and white wires swap at the 321 Duraspark connector.
I know that this is overlooked elsewhere.

Thank you for putting in all the effort to document this Gary.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

That kind of thing is really why the website got started. We answered the same question over and over again on FTE, but didn't have a good way to document the answers so we could refer people to them instead of recreating the wheel.

Chris tried to create a new way of doing documentation but couldn't get the powers-that-be to approve it. So I started the website as I'd rather answer the question once and improve the answer as we learn rather than to recreate it over and over again with different variations that confuse people. And now, 529 web pages later and growing rapidly, we have the Bullnose bible.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, the problem is, the W/LB, loses 12V power in Start, and the R/LG receives it, upon returning to Run, R/LG now is only fed through the resistor from the W/LB wire. In Start the W/LB would receive resisted 12V feed from the R/LG wire.

For a choke heater source the W/LB wire would be great, for a reliable one wire ignition system, you should use the TFI setup where W/LB and R/LG are tied together to insure reliable 12V feed to the ignition module in both Start and Run.

Apparently this was to keep from "cross feeding" the DS-II system? As for idiot lights, I thought I had a "GEN" light on Darth. The 1996 cluster has both the "ALT" light and voltmeter except it is a battery symbol.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

Bill - I agree that the white/light blue loses 12v in Start, but it is still fed from the ballast resistor, so should have plenty of power to pull in a Bosch relay. Right? Especially when the white/light blue is no longer powering the coil and/or ignition module.

As for what you have "in" Darth on the dash, I do not know. But if I get everything back in this box I'm wrestling with, you'll have pretty parts under the hood soon.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

You might need to try it, keeping in mind under cranking conditions you will have less than battery voltage available. I do know that 7 volts from the stator circuit will pull in a Bosch relay. On the relay and socket, if it will be underhood, you might want it to be either weatherproof on the plug, or semi weatherproof with a "shroud" over the plug. I have a fair selection of Chrysler relays and their sockets with this style. They were used underhood on the 80s-90s minivans. Either that or the marker/trailer lamps or fuel pump style on these trucks.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Steve83

Re: Lost and cornfused

Banned User

I strongly advise against anything marketed as "waterproof" on any vehicle OUTside the passenger cabin. Nothing is. The more seals it has, the more water it HOLDS.

Bosch relays are weather-resistant on their own, and much more-reliable than older Ford-style relays. If they're inside the factory '92-up underhood PDB, this won't affect them at all:

85lebaront2

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

Your opinion, I have had a number of MOPAR products with the shielded relays and never had a problem maybe I should rephrase it to "weatherproof", he is working on a 1986 truck, no underhood PDC, just the crack head wiring on the power distribution (someone loved fusible inks).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

Ok, here's what I'm thinking about. This is a rough attempt, but I need your thoughts, please? What does someone like William need to see?

The page would include the EEC wiring diagram, but w/o the red circle. Or, maybe with lots more red showing where the changes should be?

And then it'll have something like this, although the power feed needs a fuse. But you get the idea - the EEC bits can be removed the the wiring disconnected at the connectors.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Hstrymkrs

Re: Lost and cornfused

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I am waking up from three night shifts, so my mind isn't working real well. Do we not need the power wire to be hot in the start circuit as well like Bill is stating?

According to DUI, since I am running a nonfeedback carb, I only need a power wire and a wire for the tach since I will not have a vacuum. Everything else is built into the distributor and works independently of the PCM/EEC. They will include a "plug" that allows the vacuum attachment to be removed. Everything is set up and tuned to my car/engine displacement/cam,etc.

I would think that I need a wire that is hot in both the run and the start circuit. The W/LB wire is hot only in the run circuit? I will find some coffee and wake up here shortly.

William

1985 Ford Bronco XLT, 4.9L, NP-435 transmission, NP0208 transfer case, 3.55 limited slip rear end,TTB Dana 44 with 3.54

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

Follow the white/l blue wire back in the first schematic.
You'll see it's hot in run and in start (through the resistor)

I don't know why you wouldn't want vacuum advance. Dynamic timing seems a lot better for power and economy, at least in my experience.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs

William - Glad you chimed in. And, you reminded me that I need to include the tach wire. Thanks.

As for the power feed, Jim is right. The white/light blue wire is powered during Start. And while it is through that resistor, my math says the voltage drop across the resistor will be ~1v. (A typical Bosch relay pulls less than an amp through the coil and with E=IR, it'll be 1a x 1.1 ohm = ~1v.) And that is plenty of voltage to pull in that relay.

And, Jim is also right. I'd sure want vacuum hooked to my distributor as the vacuum advance is there for fuel economy - and it makes a big difference. So I'd go back to DUI and tell them I want vacuum. But that's your call.

Last, if I were to add the tach wire and the vacuum hose to the schematic, would that be what you'd need?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Hstrymkrs

Re: Lost and cornfused

While looking through the fog, my initial thought is that it looks like it will work. I do not recover well from night shift so please forgive any errors I make. However, I will need to pull out my Acme Wiley Coyote work bench to find out for sure.

I will call DUI back and ask them about the vacuum. It wasn't a matter of want or not want, it was a matter of it not being their currently and if I needed to route a vacuum line to the distributor. I will make the inquiry. I understand that the vacuum advance allows the engine to conserve energy so to speak when not under load. Again, I have no problem with a vacuum advance, I just wasn't sure how I would work it in and if I "needed" it. I wonder if DUI would program a better learning curve into my brain.

1985 Ford Bronco XLT, 4.9L, NP-435 transmission, NP0208 transfer case, 3.55 limited slip rear end,TTB Dana 44 with 3.54

Gary Lewis

Re: Lost and cornfused

Administrator

No prob. Almost 50 years ago I worked a rotating shift and I remember not recovering from graveyards well at all.

As for the vacuum, it is just a matter of running a hose, available in bulk from the parts store, to a fitting that is surely already available on the engine. For instance, you probably have HVAC controls that use vacuum. And maybe speed control. These will have manifold vacuum to them, meaning it is on all the time, and it can be used for the vacuum advance.

But I like to use ported vacuum for the vacuum advance, meaning that it comes on only when the throttle is above idle. And your carb will probably have a port for that on it. So it will be really simple to hook up vacuum to the distributor, one way or the other.

Concerning the learning curve, you are on the steep part of the slope. Hang in there, it is all gonna make perfect sense, soon.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Lost and cornfused

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In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs

I can remember working the graveyard shift back in the '70's. Then leaving to get to high school.
It's tough if it is not your regular routine.

Vacuum advance allows you to factor throttle position and engine load on top of simple centrifugal advance that is determined by engine rpm, weights and springs.

It allows for more advance at lower rpm while being able to control knock.

If your new carb is a Holley clone it should have ports for both timed (ported) vacuum and manifold vacuum.

Gary has already graciously offered to draw it all up

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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