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EFI For Dad's 400

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85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

I'm sure it can without a problem, however, it gives you more options on an EEC-V box if it doesn't need to control an E4OD.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

What kind of options? This sounds like a good thing.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Braved the -23C temps today for a few pics. Yes, this is considered a warming trend in Saskatchewan!

First, the 85.5/86 ECU bracket. Just so happens I have a partially stripped cab.

86 ECU mounting

You can see the oval firewall hole that the wiring passes through. I'm not a big fan of this mounting arrangement. Seems cluttered under the dash.

Next, ECU mounting in a 2000ish Ranger.

Ranger firewall

There are a couple interesting things going on with the Ranger. The ECU is mounted high and dry on the cowl. The mounting tray allows the ECU to remain inside the cab and the connections are made at the firewall in a manner that best seals them from the weather. This also eliminates the need to pass a wire bundle through the firewall. All the wiring can stay inside the engine compartment.

They problem is that there is not similar cowl real estate available on the bullnose cab. Here are pics of a similar, (90) cab stripped down with heater components still in place.

I could envision using the Ranger ECU tray to mount the ECU through the firewall between the floor and defroster ducts.

The E150 harness mounts the ECU in the passenger footwell area, at least the 89 that I wrecked several years ago did. I recall it was not very convenient to access and the connections ran through a grommet in the firewall.

No real answers here, but food for thought.

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

Ray - Thanks for the pics. They certainly help with the understanding. Is there any chance there is enough room between the firewall and the dash at the oval hole to install the Ranger tray? In other words, could a Ranger tray, which would be for an EEC-V, be bolted to the firewall at the oval hole location? That way I might me able to use the whole Ranger ECU harness, tray, etc. And the connector would be pretty much high and dry.

However, I’m not asking you to go back out and bask in those relatively-warm temps. 😎

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Here's a pic from the engine side of that 86 firewall. You can see the oval hole just down and inside from the brake booster.

The location I had in mind is more centered above the transmission hump. This would place the ECU behind the radio and heater controls. I think there is enough depth to accommodate, but I would have to measure.

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

Yes, some place in that area should work. Thanks!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

It doesn't have to be the ML1-441 hardware code, it can come from a 5.0L with MT or C6 or AODE, 4R70W or a 5.8L MT or C6. Look through the list I sent you for catch codes to ask for.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, the only reason I suggested the 85-86 location is the mounts for everything except the actual EEC bracket are already in the cab. The Taurii through 1995 (and maybe newer) have the EEC mounted above the inside HVAC case with a gasket and the connector is underhood, my 1995 Lincoln Continental is the same style and on that one the whole engine harness is a bear, but all but a ground are plug in. If you can go with that style, then you would only need the connections from the EFI system to the chassis harnesses.

Question for you and Ray, is there enough room inside the oval hole to enlarge it to fit the EEC-V connector through? I have at least one extra EEC-V gasket plate or you may be able to use the Ranger one.

No, a Ranger EEC-V will not necessarily be able to run a V8 even manual transmission. On the plugs, the cover over the wiring can be changed and even in some cases the direction swapped.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

Bill - I'm getting lost. So let me take it point by point:

1985.5/86 Mounts: Those would be for the EEC-IV tray and I'm going EEC-V. Are they the same?
Or, will the V tray bolt in where a IV goes?

Above HVAC case: I think you are suggesting what I was wondering about - put it under the dash pad/above the HVAC system. I haven't looked, and can't for a few weeks, but it seems like that would mean the wires would pass through the cowl and not just the firewall. Or, am I thinking incorrectly?

Oval hole/adapter plate: Again, I think we may be thinking alike. If there is enough room to put the Ranger plate where the oval hole is then is there enough room to put the ECU on the other side? Ray has suggested going above the tranny.

"connections from the EFI system to the chassis harnesses": I'm lost here. I get lost in the terminology, and don't understand what the 42-pin connector goes to, etc. So, can you please explain?

Ranger ECU: I wasn't thinking of using a Ranger computer as I have two EEC-V ECU's from Ray -
a 302/E4OD and a 302/4R100. And, I have the EEC-V from you, but I don't remember what it was from. So, I'll use the E4 for Dad's and the 4R for Big Blue - assuming I can turn the tranny code off like you said.</h6

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Bill, I know that oval hole is big enough to pass the EECIV connector. As to the connector size, the dimensions of the 68 pin shell and the 104 pin shell appear to be identical. I don't think enlarging the hole would be necessary.

I do know the 85.5/86 mount fastens to the lower edge of the dash and to the firewall. Personally, I used some of my best GM cuss words when I had to work on the ECU mounted in that position.

I think the Ranger tray is an elegant solution. They are plastic and are glued into the firewall. Removal takes a little diligence with a razor knife and a prybar, but they do come out cleanly. I have seen them used with both EECIV and EECV ECU's. There is a plate bolted to the engine compartment side that both holds the ECU in place and provides a weatherproof seat to the connector. I have used one previously in a 52 Ford cab and it worked well.

I have to get around to posting up some pictures of my Frankentruck project, which uses a cab from an 87 model with Bullnose sheetmetal. I will be using the driver's side kick panel location as I am using the later model wiring and all the knockouts are in the correct locations, but if I had to cut a hole, I would certainly be using the Ranger tray instead of going to the 85.5/86 location.

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

Ray - Thanks. Does the Ranger tray go into the cab from the engine compartment? Or does it glue in from the inside?

If we can find a way or place to put it in I'd like to use the Ranger tray and wiring. (I assume it would have the same wire colors as the bigger trucks.)

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

It's mounted from the engine side.

The Ranger wiring is also for EECV, but I'm pretty sure it only has 6 fuel injector control wires instead of 8 and I'm also pretty sure you would have to add the circuits for the E4OD. Some of the circuits, like the power circuits along with the power/relay box may work?

I have an EVTM for a 2002 Ranger if you are interested?

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

Ray - Hadn't thought about the # of injector wires.

Ok, that's a problem. If I'm going to have to run wire I'd like to use the correct colors, so I might as well get a connector with wire from a V8. But, this is for Big Blue so I don't need the transmission wires as he has a manual tranny.

So, thanks for the offer on the Ranger EVTM, but let's wait to see where this goes. As you know, I'm tied up for a bit, and when I do get back to trucks I need to get the front end under Dad's truck and the engine and tranny in. Then I can turn to Big Blue. So, right now I'm just doing the research. Or, asking you to do the research?

But, if I had the Ranger tray, can I use another connector in it? Or, would I just un-pin the other two injector wires and add them to the Ranger connector?

I'll confess, I don't have my head around how the harnesses go together. Or, what harnesses there are.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I started right before we ate dinner, so there have been some other posts, but here they are in order.

EEC-IV and EEC-V cases are physically the same dimensions, it's the plug that is different externally. Ford had to make it to fit in the existing locations on many of the bodies.

Over the HVAC inside case, not sure if that is even possible, I was just listing locations that I have seen, the EEC is inside, just like the 1987-96/7 trucks and only the plug is exposed. On the Taurus, Lincoln Continental, Ranger and 1992-96/7 trucks, there is a plastic cover with a molded on gasket that seals (in theory) the EEC area and retains it in the rack.

Oval hole, again, if there is room for the later or other source EEC rack, then the hole could be enlarged so the EEC can be inserted from under the hood. Above the tranny is pretty damn close to the 1985-86 factory location, explain that gain? On running the wires through a penetration, you and Ray are both concerned about getting water into the EEC, if it is inside the cab and up above the bottom edge of the dash, you would drown the ignition most likely before it got wet and you would have a pretty wet ass.

Connections to the chassis, from the engine, all your engine mounted sensors and solenoids are connected to the front harness (where the EEC is connected along with the ICM) by a 42 pin connector on the 1992-96/7 trucks, 1987-91 there were 4 round 8 pin connectors on the inner fender apron. Somewhere under the hood is where that interface needs to be so the engine can come out easily if needed. Unfortunately, though the 42 pin connector is weatherproof, I have not seen one that could be sealed into the firewall area like the round one on the 1990 or the rectangular one on the 1992-96/7 trucks. This would need to be a waterproof seal where it penetrates the firewall. The round connector from the 1990 would provide you with enough circuits if you wanted to use it and both the male and female connectors are available from Dorman.

EECs, the one I sent you is either a GIN3 or TIN3, both are 351W and E4OD, I was thinking that for Dad's. As far as I know, the only real difference between one for and E4OD and 4R100 (I didn't know that the 4R100 came behind a 302) is the output shaft speed sensor that was added to the 4R100 when it was introduced in 1998.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

That oval hole is pretty close to the opening for the steering column. The notion of mounting the ECU in that area probably would not work as there just is not enough real estate for a through the firewall mounting, although there is nothing stopping an EECV installation using the 85.5/86 mounting bracket and the oval hole as a wire feed through.

There is enough real estate, (I hope) nearby above the transmission tunnel, just below the wiper motor. The advantage is using the firewall mount which eliminates the need to run the ECU wiring inside the cab.

The water issue pertains to the 87 and up location of the ECU in the lower driver side kick panel. Either the 85.5/86 location or any other higher cowl mounted location would be preferable. Deep water crossing is a concern with an off road truck as well as reports of plugged vents promoting flooding that kick panel area.

One question I may add is that oval hole present on 84 and earlier cabs?

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

Guys - I’m out and about and can’t get my head around all of this on this small screen. But I’ll check it out further tomorrow. Thanks!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by NotEnoughTrucks

Ray, the issues there are two fold, first, the area above the transmission tunnel is not flat, second it is occupied by the heater and defroster ducts on the inside. Here is a picture of a 1990 cab with just a 460 long block sitting in the frame. The angled section from just above the inside of the HVAC inlet hole to just beyond the wiper motor mount is the line of the cowl seam and the area below there is not really flat.

Here is a picture of a 1986 firewall, you can see the spot welds going across the firewall to cowl airbox junction and that the area below rolls back to clear the back of the engine.

On the oval hole, I believe that was a 1985-86 only design to allow for the mid 85 EFI 5.0L introduction. As for the 1992-96/7 location, I haven't done any deepwater fording (did that in the Marines) but have not had a water intrusion issue on my truck.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

I'm going to try to use my really crappy Paint skills to show what I mean.

There are two areas which have sufficient flat firewall to use that Ranger tray.

outside

The problem is, I don't know how much room is behind the firewall at these points, but I can take a guess at the location above the transmission hump.

inside

I think clearance for the connector and room to remove/install the ECU would be the issue in the area over the transmission hump. The pics that Bill posted with the engine in place do present some question about clearance, but I think these areas would be on about the same plane as the intake manifold. The position vertically is restricted by the placement of the floor and defrost ducts on the inside of the firewall, but I think there is sufficient room.

The location under the hood hinge is just a second guess on my part. I really have not looked at the clearance here, but there is sufficient flat space in the engine compartment.

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Administrator

Ok guys, thanks for the input. I'm pretty sure Dad's ECU will go under the seat, but I'm not sure about Big Blue. If I could come up with a pretty sure-fire way to pass the wires through the plate in the floor w/o a water leak then that seems the easiest. But, I'll also consider the others you've mentioned. Thanks again!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary, had a few thoughts here.

The only reason to put the ECU inside the cab is for environmental protection. I know your objective here is to build it the way Ford would have done it, but, (shudder), GM went through much of the same developmental stages and ended up putting their ECU under the hood. Of course, nowadays, many ECU's are under the hood and the case is much more environmentally sealed than the EECIV/EECV designs. GM solved this with their early design ECU's by making a weatherproof container to hold the ECU under the hood.

So, I don't think it would be a difficult task to make a box to hold the EECV ECU under the hood, possibly also incorporating a power distribution box and relay center. This would eliminate altogether the need to run most of the EECV wiring into the cab and would greatly simplify the installation.

Another thought I had was using EECV wiring components from different vehicles. In fact, the Ranger wiring harness suggestion came to mind as I have quite a few Rangers out back in the field of dreams. One potential project is to replace a 3.0 V6 with a V8 and the idea of modifying the Ranger harness needed some exploration on my part, so I decided to spend an evening entering pin numbers and wire functions into a spreadsheet. For comparison, I also included a modular motor, so I'm comparing the 1996 F150 5.0 V8 with a 2003 3.0 V6 Ranger and a 1998 F150 4.6 V8.

EECV_pin_comparison.pdf

Turns out, a lot of pins are common and accommodating a V8 ECU and the extra injector wires would require repinning and adding circuits, but it it not nearly as complex as it would seem.

Just food for thought. I have yet to try this!

1234

EFI For Dad's 400

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

1985.5/86 Mounts: Those would be for the EEC-IV tray and I'm going EEC-V. Are they the same? Or, will the V tray bolt in where a IV goes?

Above HVAC case: I think you are suggesting what I was wondering about - put it under the dash pad/above the HVAC system. I haven't looked, and can't for a few weeks, but it seems like that would mean the wires would pass through the cowl and not just the firewall. Or, am I thinking incorrectly?

Oval hole/adapter plate: Again, I think we may be thinking alike. If there is enough room to put the Ranger plate where the oval hole is then is there enough room to put the ECU on the other side? Ray has suggested going above the tranny.

"connections from the EFI system to the chassis harnesses": I'm lost here. I get lost in the terminology, and don't understand what the 42-pin connector goes to, etc. So, can you please explain?

Re: EFI For Dad's 400

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

1985.5/86 Mounts: Those would be for the EEC-IV tray and I'm going EEC-V. Are they the same?
Or, will the V tray bolt in where a IV goes?