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Big Blue's Transformation

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Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Wow! I'm somewhat surprised with the lack of response re the leak-down testing yesterday. Are you, like me, quite taken aback? Speachless?

Well, I ran another set of test this morning, and the results are shown below, but they aren't that much different than what I found yesterday. After carefully cleaning the spark plug holes and the compressed air connections I got roughly what I did yesterday. The differences are that a couple of cylinders got a bit better and one cylinder's exhaust valve didn't seal.

But, the gist of it is that while I'm used to seeing % losses in the single digits, this engine has from 18% to almost 50% loss. And essentially all of it is to the sump, meaning the rings are leaking.

So the question becomes what to do. As a refresher, I had the F3TE EFI heads completely gone through, so I'm thinking I want to buy a short block to put them on rather than build something myself. And, I think I want to sell this engine outright rather than piece it out. It runs well, but I want it to be tighter for the driving I expect to do.

So I'm going to email Scotty, the mad porter, and get his recommendation of an approach with one of his engines. But, what suggestions do y'all have.

(And, by the way, I just took a Tagamet and had crackers for lunch. Yep, my stomach is not happy.

)

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

1986F150Six

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

I didn't respond, but did think, "and this engine was running well?" It should run much better when you correct this, no?

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

If you're going to ask Scottie he'll probably say deck the block and run one of his custom grind Delta cams.

I wouldn't recommend too hot an engine on a trekking vehicle.
Not would I suggest something that won't run on regular.
But by decking the block you will get effective quench, and can probably go to 10:1,.... depending on the cam.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

David - Yes, the engine towed the trailer quite well and would get 11 - 12 MPG when running 65 MPH w/o the trailer. So it does run pretty well. But, this leakage isn't right, and with the money I've spent on the D60, ZF5, etc I do not want to put the engine back the way it is.

Jim - We shall see what he says. Here's the note I just sent him, reviving the email conversation we had a year ago:

Scott - Can we start this conversation over? I think I'm in the market for a short block, and want to know what you'd recommend from your shop and the price thereof.

Brief background: I have an '85 F250 w/a 460/T19 (soon to be ZF5) that I'm going to drive on the highway and use for mild offroading/overlanding as well as some towing. The engine in it was put together my someone else and leaks oil but otherwise runs pretty well and gets 11 - 12 MPG if driven gently . I'm converting it to EEC-V so pulled it to use the short block with the F3TE heads I had gone through locally. But, the leak-down test shows from 18% to 46% leakage, and essentially all of that is to the sump. I'm used to seeing #'s in the single digits with my tester, so know something's amiss and am seriously considering selling it and going with a short block.

I'd like to use the F3 heads, but my machinist said they'll be fine with the Eddy Performer cam that's in this engine, which only has lift of .460/.480". Obviously that limits cam choices, but I have $1K in the heads so.....

So, what would you recommend? I'm not looking for high horsepower, but want the power from idle up. And good MPG - for a 460.

Thanks,
Frustrated Gary

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Banned User

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I don't remember much about leakdowns - I generally go by compression, oil pressure, & vacuum tests.

And I don't see the appeal of messing with a short block. I'd find a good-running EFI engine from a TRUCK (not a car), drop as much of it in as I could make fit, and drive the hell out of it. It'll tolerate today's & tomorrow's gasoline far better than yesterday's engine; and it'll run far more reliably & efficiently on the trek & on the road.

salans7

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I think you see the numero uno reason why I stripped my truck down and sold off what was a running EFI 302. I was fortunate enough to see my truck running before I bought it, when the transmission was shot. The P.O. held that truck at WOT more times than I care to mention just trying to get that truck to move. Hearing that engine scream was painful, and before I even took possession of that truck, I knew that engine was not something I could trust.

I think the short block is definitely the way to go for you, provided it's from a reputable source.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Steve - I like leak-down much better than compression tests as I've had compression tests say there's no problem when a problem was obvious. So I built a leak-down tester, which found the problem, and won't go back.

As for the short block, I have a pair of F3TZ EFI heads that I paid $1000 for a complete rebuild on. So I want to use them. Plus, I don't want to do this again, so won't go for a junkyard engine.

Shaun - We are in complete agreement.

All - More parts fell off today:

Oh, and I found these hanging from the front of the frame so took them off.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Gary,. You have the perfect "truck engine" donor in Blue!

Just think.... you could have TWO gutted trucks in your garage!

Do you know the bolt size that goes through the spring?
I could get some in advance.

Thanks!

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Jim - PLEASE don't put ideas like that in my head!!!

The 3.5L EB is a good truck engine, but then the ZF5 doesn't work. In fact, from what I remember, there's no manual tranny for that engine, and I want the low 1st gear from a ZF5.

As for the bolts, I'll check tomorrow to see if Sky sent bolts for the shackles. Maybe I can send these to you.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

I was really just teasing you about Steve's post.

I'm glad to go out and buy some.
I just don't want to get stuck with the truck in the air, and not have the right size.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

In reply to this post by Steve83

Steve, I am in complete agreement with Gary, a CLT will tell you a lot more than a compression test and can be done on engines where a compression test is difficult to impossible (aircraft engines, lawnmower engines). Two friends and I were testing a weak cylinder on one of them's Piper Tri-Pacer engine, compression was reasonable, but the cylinder showed weak in use. CLT, air hissed into the sump like an open air hose, turned the prop a little off TDC, hiss stopped and John who was working the prop ahd all he could do to hold it. I killed the air immediately. Bore scope inspection revealed a dark area on one side, but nothing supper conclusive.

Due the the engine design, the complete jug had to be removed, once off, there was an eroded area on the back side of the bore and a matching damaged area on the piston.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Bill - That's a good example. Mine isn't as dramatic, but the 351W in the '82 Explorer I had would nearly shake the mirrors off at idle. In fact, you wanted to shift to neutral out of drive at a stop or it got really bad.

I did a compression test and everything was fine according to it. Someone suggested a leak-down test, which was new to me. So I did some research and found how to make a leak-down tester and did so and then used it on the engine. The results indicated that there were valve problems on cylinders that were adjacent in the firing order. I had the heads gone through and bolted them back on, and the engine ran smoothly after that.

Given the results of the compression test vs the leak-down test I gave up on compression testing then and there.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

grumpin

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Gary did you do the leak down test on a warm engine. If not could be the lack of oil on the rings.

As Bill said also did you move the crank around to “seat” the rings? When you have a prop to grab on to, it’s easier.

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Dane - The engine wasn't warm. But then I've never tested a warm engine as it is usually painful to get near a hot engine to change out plugs, move the adapter around, turn the crank, etc. And, I've never had any problems testing a "cold" engine.

As for moving the crank around, I turned the engine over probably 10 times during the testing. Initially I had to play around to find when #1 was on the compression stroke. Then there was the frequent movement of the crank because the marks weren't actually TDC. And in turning it over with the piston stop there were several more rotations.

And then today I started all over finding the compression stroke on #1 and did a complete test, so another several turns. Then I tried BDC on a couple of centers and turned it over even more.

And it was only a week ago that the engine was running. So there should have been an oil film on the rings.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

grumpin

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Ok, I’ve never tested a cold engine. And I’ve never tested an automotive engine that I remember, leak down, I mean.

By moving the crank I mean 5 or 6 inches or so until you feel it seat.

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

85lebaront2

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

Damn Dane, did you used to work on Corsairs?

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

In reply to this post by grumpin

Feel it seat? I don't understand. Please explain.

Yesterday I marked the damper every 90 degrees and then found TDC on the compression stroke for #1. Tested it and then turned the crank 90 degrees for #5, then another 90 degrees for #4, and so on for 2-6-3-7-8.

But, I was plagued with the crank not staying on TDC as I was testing. Had to put a socket and a breakover on the crank to hold it. Then I discovered that the damper is wrong by 2 1/2 degrees so I re-marked everything and ran it again. This time each cylinder stayed on TDC.

Does that have anything to do with "feel it seat"?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Banned User

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

More parts fell off today:

I thought you were gonna strap the frame to the lift arms so IT doesn't fall off.

Gary Lewis

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

Administrator

I thought I'd have to. But, while I think I could lift the front of the truck off the lift arms, there's probably at least 150 lbs of down force there. So I decided it wasn't necessary to lash it down.

I did move the truck further onto the lift than usual, which puts more weight in front of the rear arms. And when I lifted the truck off the front suspension I got the rear tires off the floor slightly and checked. It didn't want to go anywhere.

And, on another note, Scott/WelderScott is to come over Thursday evening and scope out the hacked up crossmember. In the interim I'll post on here my thoughts about where to cut and we can discuss it. Then Scott and I can work through it and I'll spend Friday cutting Big Blue's crossmember and then cut a piece out of the donor crossmember to match.

And then Scott is to come back on Saturday and we'll weld it in.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

grumpin

Re: Big Blue's Transformation

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I hope I can explain it. That’s what I meant by it’s easier with a propeller.

At TDC and the diff. gauge on and pressurized, with the longest breaker bar you have, rock the crank back and forth and you should feel or see the rings seat. By seeing I mean on the gauge. By feel I mean you will hear or feel it seal up. HTH!

Bill, unfortunately I never worked on Corsairs. But a bunch of piston airplanes before I worked on corporate jets. One fun airplane I worked on was a Grumman Goose seaplane. Big radials, but not like the powerhouses on the Corsairs! The DeHavilland Beaver on floats was cool too!

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

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