Big Blue's Transformation

That was mostly 'Dad's Truck'.

Though I honestly forget when Gary and his brother went to Florida to pick up Big Blue behind Blue.

Yes, you've got to expect the analysis and pedantry.

Jim - My plan is to have a 2 to 2.5 gallon air tank.  Probably steel.

And you are right, a high CFM electric system is pricey.  Which is why I was planning to go with the York compressor, which puts out 6 - 8 CFM.  And a 100% duty cycle electric one of that capacity is very expensive.

So perhaps I don't need that much capacity?  Maybe I can fill the tank as I'm coming to the end of the trail, air up a couple of tires, and then wait a few min's to fill up the other two?

The issue with the Yorks is mainly to due with the oil.  Rock Crawler has a page on how to fix that.  This page from The Ranger Station explains how they would do it.  What are your thoughts?

Shaun -

ArdWrknTrk wrote

That was mostly 'Dad's Truck'.

Though I honestly forget when Gary and his brother went to Florida to pick up Big Blue behind Blue.

Yes, you've got to ENJOY the analysis and pedantry.

Fixed it for you

> Nothing Special



Where's the 'like' button?

2.5 gal @ 120 psig = 10gal  @ 30.
It's not a big tank. I have a few around that size.

I'm a visual thinker so I envision two joint compound buckets worth of tires filled. (or twice as much if going 15->30)

If you're not trying to blow something clean or spray paint with it I see an autolubing pump as advantageous as far as keeping a steel tank from rusting out.
I definitely wouldn't mount an auto-drain under an off-road truck

A check valve and pressure cut out + unloader seem the only reasonable WTG.

Would you have a regulator?
Some kind of hose reel?
A quick connect mounted in the bed?

ArdWrknTrk wrote

> Nothing Special

Where's the 'like' button?

It seemed fitting!

ArdWrknTrk wrote

....  If you're not trying to blow something clean or spray paint with it I see an autolubing pump as advantageous as far as keeping a steel tank from rusting out....

Any concern with putting the oil into a rubber tire?  

And how much can you count on air flow direction changes to separate it out?  I have an electric compressor so lube isn't an issue, but I still get a lot of water of course.  I have a 2.5 gallon air tank under my Bronco and I run the line from the compressor to the side of the tank with the line coming out from the top of the tank.  I'm hoping that most of the water doesn't make the turn and falls to the bottom of the tank.  Oil would likely do something similar.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

....  I definitely wouldn't mount an auto-drain under an off-road truck

A check valve and pressure cut out + unloader seem the only reasonable WTG.

Would you have a regulator?
Some kind of hose reel?
A quick connect mounted in the bed?

And I know you weren't asking me, but since I know Gary likes picking people's brains...

I don't have a drain valve, but there is a drain plug in the bottom of my tank.  Every so often (probably a lot less often than I should) I pull it to drain the water, then I spray some WD40 in before I put the plug back in.  And that reminds me, it's probably time for that.

I have a pressure switch (cut-out?) that turns my compressor off at about 120 psi and back on around 100 or so.  I do not have a check valve (other than whatever plumbing came with the compressor?).  And I do not have an unloader.

I think I have a regulator, but if I do it's only for the "toad brakes".  (I know I did on my old CJ5, I can't remember for sure if I set up the Bronco the same way and it's at the exhaust shop tonight so I can't check.)  But for any use other than the toad brakes I wouldn't bother with it.

I have a quick-connect under the hood, and another in the "bed" (it's a Bronco, not a pickup, so I'm not really sure what it has qualifies as a bed).  But as it turns out I rarely use the one under the hood.  And I don't have a hose reel, but that might be a good idea.  I have about a 20' long old air hose and it has sprung some leaks on me, so I really ought to upgrade to something.

I have a small chore compressor which I have stopped using because:
A) The power switch broke on it
2) It was too small for most jobs I wanted to do, besides airing up a tire or two
d) I no longer have a garage or a good way to plug it in right now
Q) I work at a tire shop and have unlimited air (if I plan ahead).

If you want it for experimentation or even use on BB, it's yours. I believe it to be ~5gal.
I have a power inverter if you want to see about amp draw...

Nothing Special wrote

Any concern with putting the oil into a rubber tire?  
... I spray some WD40 in (the tank) before I put the plug back in

Any concern putting kerosene + propane propellant in a rubber tire?  
Maybe a stainless tank would be a better (if more costly) alternative?

Having an inline check valve at the tank inlet would keep you from losing everything in the event you damaged the line from the pump.
If there was an unloader it would keep it from draining the whole tank too.

Nothing Special wrote

I have a pressure switch (cut-out?) that turns my compressor off at about 120 psi and back on around 100 or so.  I do not have a check valve (other than whatever plumbing came with the compressor?).  And I do not have an unloader....
I don't have a drain valve, there is a plug in the bottom of my tank to drain the water.

A ball valve to blow the tank down every day it's used seems a lot easier than a procedure that reads like an oil change to me.
But I don't have one, and I see how little it will actually be used.

I do know how hard a compressor starts.
I just think giving it a hand getting up to speed will make its life easier.

Being in the building trades I see a lot of guys that have air and electricity built in to their vans.
(Some of these things rival Apollo control! Definitely a command center for the jobsite)
Hose reels always seem to accompany that, but bulk and complexity in adverse conditions are not a good combo.
25-30' of hose seems like it would reach anywhere on the truck.

Onboard air would be nice on the trail of you wanted to take a tractor tube on a stream/lake/pond.  

Wow!  Janey and I took most of yesterday off to go shopping and watch a movie, and LOTS happened here.  So let me try to address or ask questions of what was said:

Bob - Yes, one should enjoy the discussion.  (Aka "micro-analysis" by those who are jealous.  )

Steve - Thanks for the offer, but you are going to need that at some point.  And cannibalizing a compressor for the tank wouldn't be right since fixing the switch would make it useful.  Plus I want to either go with the engine-driven York or a 12v purpose-built system.

All - A stainless tank would be nice, but I suspect that a steel tank will be much less expensive - see below for the portable one I have that cost $30.  And I do want a safety valve as my nephew told me his pressure switch failed and when he caught it the pressure gauge was pegged well past 200 psi - on a tank that is rated at 120.  

But I'm not sure I see the need for a regulator.  The intent is to use the air system to inflate the tires after airing down for the trail.  And, maybe a tube for swimming!  So a regulator would just be another point of failure as well as more connections to leak.

And, speaking of airing up, perhaps I should air up my portable air tank to 120 psi and use it to fill one of Big Blue's tires from 15 psi to 30.  That would give me some sense of how much air is going to be needed for these tires.  The air tank I have is this 5 gallon unit, and I'd be surprised if it can do more than one tire.  If so I'd probably better find a way to get a 5 gallon tank in rather than a 2 gallon.

As for connections, I'm thinking one on the rear bumper might be the way to go since I'll carry enough hose to go all the way around the truck.  That way it'll be easy to air up the air bags since their connections will be there as well.

What did I miss?

If you're going steel just buy a cheap compressor to cannibalize for parts.

Harbor Freight (horrible fate) is having a 4th of July sale...



You'll get a tank, unloader switch, pressure blow off, quick connect, bleeder, etc.. for WAY less than the components.

Whether you go 12V electric (and use the Furnas switch), or go with the York, and use the same pressure switch to control the AC clutch it's a package deal!

I agree on losing the regulator, but I was asking....

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Nothing Special wrote

Any concern with putting the oil into a rubber tire?  
... I spray some WD40 in (the tank) before I put the plug back in

Any concern putting kerosene + propane propellant in a rubber tire?  

Not really, because I'm putting maybe a tablespoon full in the tank and letting it sit there.  Sure, the propane may outgas and end up in the tires, but there isn't a lot of it.  And the kerosene will basically puddle in the tank, not really being blown into the tires since it's not in the air stream.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Maybe a stainless tank would be a better (if more costly) alternative?

Definitely!

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Having an inline check valve at the tank inlet would keep you from losing everything in the event you damaged the line from the pump.
If there was an unloader it would keep it from draining the whole tank too.

Not too concerned about that.  the line from the compressor to the tank is pretty well protected.  And I'm pretty much out of luck if I lose that anyway.  There's no way my tank holds enough air to do anything significant without the compressor refilling it.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Nothing Special wrote

I have a pressure switch (cut-out?) that turns my compressor off at about 120 psi and back on around 100 or so.  I do not have a check valve (other than whatever plumbing came with the compressor?).  And I do not have an unloader....
I don't have a drain valve, there is a plug in the bottom of my tank to drain the water.

A ball valve to blow the tank down every day it's used seems a lot easier than a procedure that reads like an oil change to me.
But I don't have one, and I see how little it will actually be used.

My air tank is under my Bronco, so anything at the bottom of the air tank is subject to rock strikes.  I used to have a Schrader valve in that port.  I never broke it off, but I did bend it once.  That was enough for me, so I put the smallest, most robust thing I could in there, a plug.  Yes, a ball valve would be a lot more convenient.  Until it got broken off on the trail.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I do know how hard a compressor starts.
I just think giving it a hand getting up to speed will make its life easier.

Good point.  But my compressor doesn't start up that often.  When I'm using it to air up tires it's on all the time (why I made sure to get one that's rated for 100% duty cycle).  When I'm on the trail I keep the tank full so I can operate my air-actuated locker, but there's very little air use then, so it mostly stays off.  And I leave the compressor shut off the rest of the time.  So I don't think it's costing me an awful lot.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Being in the building trades I see a lot of guys that have air and electricity built in to their vans.
(Some of these things rival Apollo control! Definitely a command center for the jobsite)
Hose reels always seem to accompany that, but bulk and complexity in adverse conditions are not a good combo.
25-30' of hose seems like it would reach anywhere on the truck.

My Bronco is pretty short, so I think I have maybe 15' - 20' of rubber hose rolled up and I usually bring one of those coils of plastic line (10'?).  But even if you can't get around the truck you can take a shortcut under it.  So you can usually get by with less hose than you might think.  (I bring the coiled line to go between my tire inflater and the air chuck.  That way I can stand up while airing up the tires instead of having to squat down next to 4 tires.)

Seems like a simple sintered filter would eliminate any oil on the outflow port leaving the rest to coat the tank if going with a York.

I hear you on the short line (I have a 25' cut in half for doing trim in small rooms) so I'm not tripping over it.

My rclb is almost 19' bumper to bumper.

But that 25' might allow you to reach someone else in crisis (and unblock the trail for you)
A 25' polyurethane hose like Flexeel is pretty compact.

Good idea on getting a complete compressor.  (Like Steve's?  )  Oddly enough, a year or two ago I was given an old compressor that didn't work.  (Steve - Larry gave it to me.)  He thought I could use the parts, and I eyed the tank, switch, and safety valve for Big Blue.  But then I discovered that the only problem with it was the reed valves, and new ones were $12 delivered.  So I rebuilt it and my son now has a decent compressor.

But I'm not ready to spend the money on that right at the moment as I'm going to be ordering wheel bearings and seals, u-joints, etc pretty soon.  So that expenditure will wait until next year.  Or, perhaps my Christmas present will be a turn-key 12v on-board air system?  

Bob's mention of duty cycle got me to thinking.  4wd Parts has several systems, one of which has a 33% duty cycle, which doesn't sound like much.  But it has something like a 20 minute max run time.  So if I were to pump up the air tank before getting to the end of the trail and let the compressor cool while we drive then I could run it another 20 minutes.  I wonder if that would be enough?

Also Bob mentioned an air chuck, and that made me think of the chuck I had that clipped onto the valve stem.  If I used one of those then the compressor would be working against a max of 30 psi, and compressors deliver more air when working against lower pressures.  So, wouldn't the tire fill up more quickly if you attach the hose to the tire rather than pump only into a tank and then fill the tire?

The one I showed (stock# 97080/69269) is three gallon.
Tank size 8" dia x 15"L.

It's $57 retail, and I'm sure it's cheaper right now.

Yes, that HF compressor would have lots of good parts, for far less than buying them one at a time.  So if I do go with the York that's probably what I'll do.  Or pick up a broken/used one.

But this discussion got me to thinking about tank size, and I've come to the conclusion that there is no tank too big.  Some say that with a big tank you have to wait until it is full, so that slows you down.  But as I said previously, compressors pump more air at lower pressure so once the tank is depleted just use it as a pass-through.  Clip the hose to the valve stem and let the compressor run.

Given that, I want to find a tank that is a good fit but maximizes the space between the frame and the passenger's bedside.  And, it would be nice to have some protection so I could have a ball valve for draining it w/o having to worry about knocking the valve off.  So that means the tank should sit up a bit so the valve can go above the skid plate.

3 Gal seemed to exceed your request...?
And 8" seems a good match for frame rail + bed mounts and their rail.

The foot bracket looks like it would make it easy to mount.
Heck put it upside down, use the inlet for a drain and the drain to exit.

The 100psi switch is a screw turn away from 125.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  Bob's mention of duty cycle got me to thinking.  4wd Parts has several systems, one of which has a 33% duty cycle, which doesn't sound like much.  But it has something like a 20 minute max run time.  So if I were to pump up the air tank before getting to the end of the trail and let the compressor cool while we drive then I could run it another 20 minutes.  I wonder if that would be enough?

You can make anything work.  Personally I decided that I didn't want to have to manage that and just went with a 100% duty (which is more expensive).  And I don't recall what my cfm rating is.

Gary Lewis wrote

Also Bob mentioned an air chuck, and that made me think of the chuck I had that clipped onto the valve stem.  If I used one of those then the compressor would be working against a max of 30 psi, and compressors deliver more air when working against lower pressures.  So, wouldn't the tire fill up more quickly if you attach the hose to the tire rather than pump only into a tank and then fill the tire?

The way you asked the question, no.  The tire will fill up faster if there is more air pressure-volume on the other side of the tire valve.  Air will flow in faster if it's coming from a tank at 100 psi than if it's coming from a compressor that is at a pressure just slightly higher than what the tire is currently at.

But will the compressor have to run longer and harder to first pump up an air tank to 120 psi and then fill four tires?  Definitely.  But the advantage of a tank is that you can get some of the compressing done while you're not standing next to a stopped vehicle with your entire family waiting for you.  The compressor runs longer and harder on average, but you're not standing next to the vehicle for as long.

Given any particular compressor (and assuming it's not particularly fast), ideally you'd fill the tank while driving, then fill tires from both the compressor and the tank until the tank is at the same pressure as the tires, then shut a valve so the compressor is only filling the tires, and then open the valve after you are done filling the tires to refill the tank.  But that's more putzing with plumbing than I want to do, so I end up waiting a little longer for the compressor to fill the tires and tank at the same time.  But it's all at low pressure, so it's not as bad as it might be.

By the way, another lazy man's trick is to make a hose set-up with T's and 4 air chucks so you can fill all 4 tires to the same pressure at the same time.  It's no faster, but you can sit in one place for longer rather than moving around and sitting in 4 places.  Maybe less helpful on a pickup where you often want the front and rear tires at different pressures, but you can still do two at a time if you way.  (I don't want...)

Gary Lewis wrote

 I've come to the conclusion that there is no tank too big.
Given that, I want to find a tank that is a good fit but maximizes the space between the frame and the passenger's bedside.

Maybe something like this is better for you?

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/california-air-tools-aux05-5-gallon-portable-steel-air-tank-1185014?cm_mmc=feed-_-GoogleShopping-_-Product-_-1185014&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgezoBRDNARIsAGzEfe7tcEjxQtVoBkTnutkvacpDgTunHL5GlPU6zHM4evDESCfwDNXkiHsaAnQOEALw_wcB

TSC seem to have a few tanks in the 5-20 range

Gary Lewis wrote

....  I've come to the conclusion that there is no tank too big.  Some say that with a big tank you have to wait until it is full, so that slows you down.  But as I said previously, compressors pump more air at lower pressure so once the tank is depleted just use it as a pass-through.  Clip the hose to the valve stem and let the compressor run....

I missed this post earlier (I must have been posting at the time).

Yes, compressors pump more volume at lower pressure, but unless you take the tank out of the system you now have to fill up both the tire and the tank at the same time.  I think the algebra would work out that you pretty much only need to "air up" the tank once as you air up all 4 tires because what you gained while pumping up the first would be "lost" into the second, so not really lost at all.  But unless the tank is big enough to fill all 4 tires pretty much without the compressor running you'll be refilling the tank.

Not to say you don't want the biggest tank you can fit.  The advantage of a higher flow rate as you deplete the air tank may well offset the disadvantage of the lower flow rate into the tires as you also refill the tank.  And there's the downside of the time it takes to fill the tank to begin with.  Not such a huge issue since you're just driving while it does that (it takes maybe ~10 minutes for my compressor to fill my 2.5 gallon tank).  But if duty cycle is an issue, or if you need air soon after turning the compressor on it might be (with my air-actuated locker it's more of a risk than just for airing up).  I'm not sure how all of that balances out.  

For me it's pretty much a moot point anyway.  Unless I use my roll cage as an air tank (which I don't want to do for the rust issue), 2.5 gallons is about as big as I can tuck under an early Bronco.  And I think I've posted this earlier, but with my 2.5 gallon tank and 33/10.50-15 tires I can only get one tire aired up from 15 - 30 psi before the tank isn't helping me anymore.

I'm measuring my '87 and it seems there's only 8" if you want to keep it above the frame rail.

I get 26" from front of bed to spring hanger.

But 16"! from outside of rail to inside of fender.

There's a couple of inches more height if you go between the bed supports, but only 17" length.