Big Blue's Transformation

Gary Lewis wrote

Yes, it is frustrating.  I ordered the '95 FSM to have the official word on the axle, only to find out that mine doesn't match what it says.  

But I was pleasantly surprised when I talked to the people at Torque King.  They really knew what they were talking about and had the parts I needed available.  The o-rings, the nuts, the washers, the socket, etc.  And while their prices may be a bit higher than other places I've seen, I'm happy to pay it for the consulting.

The era of great customer service and knowledgeable sales people is coming to an end and it's getting hard to find companies like TK. I agree, it is definitely worth the extra price for the peace of mind that what you've ordered will be correct.

We are doing it to ourselves by asking questions one place and then buying where it is cheaper.  That's why I'm willing to pay both Sky and TK for their help.  But I fear that you and I are in the minority.  

Things like Amazon's pricing algorithms certainly aren't helping independent retailers....

And yet It sure is a lot easier to order it delivered in a day or two than to spend hours and miles trying to find what you want and it's still in vain because no one carries it in stock.

My accelerator pump is case in point.
Brass v/s plastic
Cheaper
Faster from eBay than the parts store would get it,
and I don't have to get off the couch.

Nothing Special wrote

It also always boils down to the snap ring on the stub shaft not really being necessary.

I wouldn't describe it as unecessary - it's just not what holds the lock in the hub.  I consider it VERY important to keep the U-joint centered on the BJ line, but clipping the stub shaft to the lock isn't the ONLY way to do that.  It can also be accomplished by a compression spring inside the slip joint in the passenger axle shaft (on IFS), but I'm not familiar with the later designs.

As long as the axleshaft assembly (inner, u-joint, & stub outer) don't "float" in the diff, axle housing, and spindle, then the u-joint will stay in-line.  Otherwise, there needs to be SOMETHING holding it there.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Things like Amazon's pricing algorithms certainly aren't helping independent retailers....

And yet It sure is a lot easier to order it delivered in a day or two than to spend hours and miles trying to find what you want and it's still in vain because no one carries it in stock.

My accelerator pump is case in point.
Brass v/s plastic
Cheaper
Faster from eBay than the parts store would get it,
and I don't have to get off the couch.

I like to shop local and I can be fiercely loyal to good businesses. But you make good points.

I was getting a new motorcycle helmet and our local shop didn’t have a good selection. Drove to a bigger city (70 miles) and they didn’t either. Wanted to try one on. Ended up being easier ordering it online.

I tried.

NAPA, Advance, CarQuest, Mendel's, Midland truck,. AND I drove to Norwalk to the speed shop.... but they had folded.  

So, Advance is close and I ordered an Edelbrock brand pump, but it has a plastic shaft that didn't last but 2 years. They told me a week to have it in store.

I went home and saw that Bill replied that plastic shafts are crap and to get a Carter brand with brass shaft and rubber seal.

$14 on eBay and 2 day delivery USPS first class.
It's a new world we live in.
Adapt or die.

Ok, I sidetracked us, which is no problemo. But, I now want to get back on the mainline and ask a question of y'all.

I'm still puzzling on the differences in the stub axles. From what I see:

1. Before April '95: Had the 3-piece locknut/washer/locknut and a snap-ring on the shaft
2. After March '95 according to the '95 FSM: Had the 3-piece locknut/washer/locknut, a steel/plastic/splined thrust washer pack, and a large snap ring inside of the lockouts
3. 1995-97 according to Torque King: Had the 3-piece locknut/washer/locknut combo like the before-April '95 had, but didn't have the small snap-ring on the shaft

Is that the way you see it? If so, why the steel/plastic/splined thrust washer pack and a large snap ring inside of the lockouts? Is the '95-97 manual hub/lockout, which I apparently have, shorter and therefore require the thrust washers? And why the large snap ring?

Here are the illustrations again for your viewing pleasure:

Steve83 wrote

Nothing Special wrote

It also always boils down to the snap ring on the stub shaft not really being necessary.

I wouldn't describe it as unecessary - it's just not what holds the lock in the hub.  I consider it VERY important to keep the U-joint centered on the BJ line, but clipping the stub shaft to the lock isn't the ONLY way to do that.  It can also be accomplished by a compression spring inside the slip joint in the passenger axle shaft (on IFS), but I'm not familiar with the later designs.

As long as the axleshaft assembly (inner, u-joint, & stub outer) don't "float" in the diff, axle housing, and spindle, then the u-joint will stay in-line.  Otherwise, there needs to be SOMETHING holding it there.

Good point with the TTB.  I don't think it's needed with solid axles though, because the inner axle can't get deeper in the diff.

Gary Lewis wrote

I'm still puzzling on the differences in the stub axles.  From what I see:....

Is that the way you see it?  If so, why?.....

Here are the illustrations again for your viewing pleasure....

What I see, and seems odd to me, is that Ford's FSM illustration shows a five lug hub while describing a 250-350.
While Torque King's illustration obviously shows an eight lug hub. (Which would be correct for 250-350)

Where did TK get this exploded view?
From Dana?

It's not likely they drew it themselves, just amended it with the parts they sell.

Why did Ford use a misleading diagram in their official documentation if an accurate one was available to them?

Gary Lewis wrote

If so, why the steel/plastic/splined thrust washer pack..?

AFAIK, the original design used a single thick steel splined washer labelled 3B458:





After a few years, it was revised to the 3-piece washer stack (to reduce wear/noise/harshness, I GUESS), all labelled 3B458:

Gary Lewis wrote

And why the large snap ring?

I'm not sure which one you're talking about.

Nothing Special wrote

...the inner axle can't get deeper in the diff.

What stops it?  Remember that they have to design for failure modes & wear.

BTW
I've lost track of what make/model/year axle we're talking about...  

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Why did Ford use a misleading diagram in their official documentation if an accurate one was available to them?

They're just as human as the rest of us.  I've lost count of how many errors I've found in all the Ford (& other makers') manuals & diagrams I've used.

Jim - I hadn't noticed that it is a 5-lug hub, but you are right.  

Steve - It is a '95 axle, and apparently it was built after March of that year or it wouldn't have had the rounded hex nut and c-clip.  Lucky me.

And while I've noted many mistakes in Ford's publications, typically the illustrations in the FSM are correct.  But apparently not in this case.  At the very least it isn't an 8-lug hub.  But the Torque King illustration, and I don't know where they got it, doesn't agree with the one from Ford.  However, it apears to be accurate, or at least it matches what I have.

Also I've found that Warn makes a LOCKING HUB SPINDLE NUT CONVERSION KIT - 32720 that is exactly what I ordered - the inner and outer nuts with the perforated washer.  No 3-piece washer kit.  No extra snap rings.  Exactly what I ordered from Torque King.

And, speaking of snap rings, this is the one I was talking about.  And why the 3-piece washer set?  Ford shows those things but Torque King doesn't, and I don't have them.

My concern is that perhaps the Ford-supplied 3-screw manual hub needs them, maybe because it is shorter than the Warn or MM hubs?  But I carefully explained to Roy at Torque King what I have and he said the nut/washer/nut combo was all I needed.

Hmmm, I think I'll call him back tomorrow and make sure I understood correctly.  And, see if they remember where they got the drawing.

This is puzzling!

Steve83 wrote

Nothing Special wrote

...the inner axle can't get deeper in the diff.

What stops it?  Remember that they have to design for failure modes & wear.

BTW
I've lost track of what make/model/year axle we're talking about...  

(a solid Dana 60, I forget the exact year, but it's somewhere around '96)  (edit:  I see Gary already answered this, and it's a later '95)

The splines only go so deep is what I was thinking about.  And with your suggestion of a spring in the slip joint on a TTB axle it's the same thing that spring pushes back against.

But I've got to admit that I've never looked at the tolerance stack-up to see where it would put the U-joint.  And likely the tolerances wouldn't make it look that great.  But the fact remains that a lot of vehicles can't install the retaining ring (Wild Horses, the Bronco vendor, says only about 10% of their customers with a popular aftermarket chance (I think it's a disc brake conversion) can reinstall the ring, and in many threads I've read similar situations to Gary's where there's no groove, or where for whatever reason the ring won't seat).  And in all of the threads I've read the end of the discussion has been that the ring doesn't matter.  And no one has ever given an example of a failure to say that it does.

One thing that does come to mind is that the U-joint will be self-centering to a large degree.  If it's not perfectly centered, as it starts to bend it will pull itself to center.  I could imagine that leading to a lot of vibration if it moved back and forth much.  But since the U-joint it likely not EXACTLY straight very much of the time maybe it just "wants" to stay in the right location?  I don't know for sure why or how, but it certainly does seem to work fine without the ring

Another weird thing about that diagram is that the snap ring isn't on the outside of any part of the locking hub.  I've always seen that ring to "hold the hub on" (actually to use the hub to hold the axle shaft out, but it has to be removed to take the hub off).  In that drawing the locking hub is completely outboard of the ring.

Yes it's puzzling, but I think I'd just calk it up to the drawing being wrong and not sweat it much.

But another thought, have you tried Number Dummy?  He might be able to shed some light on it if you really want to search it out.

I haven't tried Bill/Numberdummy, but will.  Good idea.  

On the illustration not matching, I'm just concerned that I have the wrong mix of parts.  But I don't think the hub has a slot for the big snap ring, although I hope to verify that this afternoon.

Maybe Bill (ND) has the answer for you.

I can't really agree with Steve...

Ford has teams of engineers and technical illustrators to produce accurate documentation.
There is NO reason for something stupid like this to get "overlooked".

I've emailed ND Bill.  Let's see what he has to say.

But, here's a pic of my stub shaft, w/o any snap-ring grooves and with the conical nut that I think was part of the synchronizer that brought the hub into play.



And, there is a place where a large snap-ring could go, just inside of the splines in the hub.  But that would put it about 1/4" inside of the backside of the lockout and I can't imagine what it would be holding in.

Also, I've done some work on cleaning up the lockout caps and I'm about to come to the conclusion they aren't going to work.  Here's a pic of one of them and you can see the corrosion on the land where the dial's o-ring is supposed to ride.  And this is after I chucked it in the lathe and cleaned it up with the boring bar as well as sandpaper.




And here's a closeup of the corrosion that's in about the 5:00 position in the above pic.  I hate to spend another $250 or so on new hubs, but it is looking like I'm going to have to if I want them sealed.  That's 'cause I can't take any more material out of that land to clean it up since the dial hits on the inside end already and there won't be any pressure on the o-ring if I do.  

Thoughts?

Gary Lewis wrote

Steve - It is a '95 axle, and apparently it was built after March of that year or it wouldn't have had the rounded hex nut and c-clip.  Lucky me.

You just needed to find a 95+ axle that was already converted the right way.

Although I do wonder if mine was really done the "right" way.

I would just replace the lockouts, but others showed their concerns with the Warn Standards (OEM plastic dial) so I would look into the Warn Premiums if you're already going to spend the money.

Yep, that's the way I'm leaning - Warn 38826 Premium. These have a 9/10-turn dial, and y'all have said they are the way to go. Amazon has them at $291 & free shipping, but Torque King has them at $284 + shipping. And, since I have the 0-rings to return to them I might just buy them there. However, that gives me a good intro into a conversation with them tomorrow. They sell both of the Warns as well as the Mile Marker, which is only $160. So which would they recommend? And, where'd their diagram come from? Having said that, the MM's only have 1/4 turn, and I don't like that as I believe it makes the dial harder to turn. Which comes back to the Warn's.

I've only a heard a few things about Mile Marker and none of it was good.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  But, here's a pic of my stub shaft, w/o any snap-ring grooves and with the conical nut that I think was part of the synchronizer that brought the hub into play....

And, there is a place where a large snap-ring could go, just inside of the splines in the hub.  But that would put it about 1/4" inside of the backside of the lockout and I can't imagine what it would be holding in....

I think that all makes perfect sense now.  Your earlier picture showed the three washers (or whatever) inside the snap ring, and the locking hub outside of it.  That didn't make sense to me until seeing that your snap ring groove is so far in on the outer axle shaft.  So it goes together exactly like the picture: the three washers, the snap ring, and then the locking hub.

And remember, that snap ring doesn't hold ANYTHING in, ever.  That inner snap ring holds the axle OUT, keeping the U-joint lined up between the ball joints.  (In the earlier, more "normal" design, that snap ring goes outboard of the locking hub assembly and people think it hold the locking hub on.  But even there it's the big ring in the ID of the wheel hub that holds the locking hub in.  So the inner snap ring is just there to hold the axle out in that case as well.)

So if you stay with your current locking hub you could get those three washers and put it together like it was originally.  But that likely won't work with aftermarket locking hubs, so in that case you would leave the three washers and snap ring out.  That gives the possibility for the axle to slide in too far so the U-joint doesn't line up with the ball joints.  But as I was saying earlier, apparently that really isn't a problem.

Gary Lewis wrote

Yep, that's the way I'm leaning - Warn 38826 Premium.  These have a 9/10-turn dial, and y'all have said they are the way to go....

However, that gives me a good intro into a conversation with them tomorrow.  They sell both of the Warns as well as the Mile Marker, which is only $160.  So which would they recommend?  And, where'd their diagram come from?

Having said that, the MM's only have 1/4 turn, and I don't like that as I believe it makes the dial harder to turn.  Which comes back to the Warn's.

I've heard quite a few people say that MileMarkers are fine, and a lot less money than the Warn Premiums, so it's foolish to spend money unnecessarily on Warns.  But again, that's just what I've heard quite a few people say.

My only personal experience with MileMarkers is that's what my '97 F-250 had when I bought it, and one was sloppy-loose, allowing water or whatever to get into the hub.  I never really tried to figure out what was wrong with it, but I replaced them with Warn Standards, and then Warn Premiums as I described earlier.  So I wouldn't say that I have enough experience to say that MileMarkers are bad, but I don't have any to say they're good either.

For the Premiums, the chrome on the ones on my F-250 started flaking off after a couple of years.  I haven't had that before on several different sets, but I'm not thrilled with it on these.  But on the other hand, I've dropped the Bronco's front tire off a rock and had the entire weight of the front corner land a Warn Premium on a rock.  Several times.  And those hubs are holding up surprisingly well.  Absolutely no functional issues, and not even as scarred up as they ought to be.

But I will say that easy turning isn't a feature that I'd say Warn Premiums have.  None of the ones I've had were terrible, but I frequently can't get a good enough grip on them while wearing gloves (a pretty big issue in a Minnesota winter).  That's actually why I got the Warn Standards to begin with.  They did turn much easier, and were easy to grab while wearing gloves.  But having the one lock itself pretty frequently outweighed that benefit.