Best alternator option?

I only have a dog in this fight in that I'm trying to combat misperceptions if not outright BS.

I recall Gary saying he wouldn't have the Powermaster if he couldn't service it.
But it really is just a beefed-up GM alternator, so IDK why that's an issue.

I went with a 3G because I was sick and tired of my 2G failing.
I imagine I could have been safe with a 1G, but didn't want to step backwards.
I looked at all my options (not many) and the videos and detailed documentation on the RJM website.

It seemed like the clear path forward.
While I think someone who currently has a 1G -and doesn't have charging problems- could roll with it forever, if you have a 2G by all means jump ship at the first sign of trouble before it burns up.

ETA: I also appreciate that it is charging at all engine speeds.


/Geek mode

Rusty,
 The reason belts now have notches is that we have better materials -nylon, aramid- to make them from.
By making notches in them, they retain the amount of driving surface while greatly reducing their beam section.
We all know that flexing anything (from a paperclip, to a skyscraper) creates heat as well as tension on the outside and compression on the inside.
Full depth belts have to bend pretty abruptly around the smaller sheave.

By providing notches, the actual chord section is much smaller so the amount of tension and compression is too.
The embedded fiber bands (like Kevlar) can hold a LOT more than the canvas of yesteryear.
So we don't need as much to carry the load.
They also don't break down until much higher temperatures are reached (Nomex is also an Aramid)

V-belts are a time honored legacy, but they're not efficient.

Once we started using better fibers we started to see poly-groove and serpentine belts.
They are thin for the same reasons I stated above.
Their added advantage is that they have more surface area.
... a bigger contact patch if you will.

Look at the cross selection.
Follow the zig-zag path, or just make an accordion from a piece of paper and fold another sheet in half.
Lay the accordion on top of the folded paper and cut off the ends sticking out from beneath.
Stand both on edge. They're the same height....
And about the same width (that of a few sheets of paper)
But what happens when you stretch them out now?  

If you had a really high load, you'd be using a Glimer (cogged) belt.
And that is why we see this kind of power transmission on cam drives and superchargers.

Questions?

/geek

kramttocs wrote

Haha now I know it will sound like I am defending Powermaster

To be fair though disliking a vendor because they don't provide a product you are looking for is entirely different than disliking them because they offer substandard products, have terrible customer service, or have less than honest intentions.....

This 100%!

I've got nothing against the company, no matter how outrageous I feel their prices are (for the product delivered)
As long as they don't misrepresent what they're selling I don't care what lipstick, bows or glitter they put on it.

There's a sucker born every minute, Caveat Emptor and all that....

Not saying V belts are efficient nor are they the best out there.  But we do have Vbelts today that are worlds better than what we used to have with Vbelts.  With modern materials and designs many exceed other v belts as well.

Such as the gatorback v belt that Goodyear used to offer.  If you had a v belt that was slipping no matter how tight you get it, throw a gatorback on and the slippage was gone.  People with V belts loved the Gatorback for how well they gripped for a V belt then they cease to produce them.  Now you have to find something new, and the one I read up on that is interesting is the Goodyear Torque-Flex, I sent sales a message for a interchange for two part numbers cause they dont use effective length but outside length and all other belt manufacturers are using effective length so I end up with two belt sizes for each belt.

Im willing to give these belts a try cause I really like the whole 25% – 30% higher power ratings than standard V belts.  The cogged vs noncogged graph for this belt also shows that cogged has an efficiency of some 93.8% to 98% for a 2" sheave diameter a 3" which is about what our alternator pulleys are is rated at 94.5% to 98%.

On the cogs they do provide cooling they also provide the ability to flex around smaller sheave pulleys.  The main benefit of the cogs is that they allow flexibility for the belt to flex and fit around the sheave to ensure efficient contact.  Sure its not as good as a serpentine belt and if it wasnt for my A/C I would at this time switch to a serpentine belt setup.  It is just more work than I want to get involved with at the moment cause I dont know about you but Ive never seen a multi ribbed pulley for a York style ac compressor.  I also havent seen a crank pulley for our trucks that has a multi ribbed sheave for the alternator belt like GM did in the 80`s where they retained V-belt drives for everything but the alternator.

The belts I am currently looking at as a possible match for alternator and fan/powersteering is either AX50 or AX51 and AX36 or AX37.  I do look forward to giving this brand of belt a try and seeing how they stand up to standard belts.  Im also curious about finding the size for my A/C belt just so I can see if the belt alone will stop the bouncing vibration of the belt.  If not my only other option is to source a rebuilt York clutch hub for my '78 Mercury and throw it on as it has the inertia ring to remove harmonics from the compressor to stop belt bounce.

As far as powermaster goes, only thing I dont like about them is their whole 1 wire setup.  I am strongly against 1 wire alternators because if your engine starts up but never hits the self exciting rpm your essentially running on the battery.  I've actually had some cars I built at work with a 1 wire alternator that wouldnt charge driving normally if you never got the rpm to hit nearly 2,000 rpm.  To me that is just a bad design for simplicity.  Why I would go with a 3G alternator upgrade and any upgrade on my '56 will be a multi wire hook up not a one wire.  none of my engines on cold start up are above 1,500 rpm and when driving my engine rpm never exceed 1,500 rpm when driving normally.

Of course they're more efficient.
They're not turning power into heat (as much)

The basic laws of thermodynamics are pretty universal.

Correct, just like flexing is heat generation, slippage is heat generation as well.  I have a belt that I am trying to get a replacement for everyone they keep shipping to me is the wrong size when they pull them.  The belt doesnt make noise but I know it is slipping cause some times my A/C blows real cold and some times it doesnt blow as cold.  Some time the belt does make noise and then it goes away, thats why noise isnt the only thing to look for as far as belt slip is concerned.  Even on my '56 my generator doesnt make noise but you can slip the generator a little if you spin the pulley back the opposite way.  But I have deflection set right on the belt and I dont want to go too much tighter and wipe out the bearings on the generator.

On a 3G alternator, yeah I wont be too concerned about wiping out a bearing on there, I've seen people over tighten late model alternators way tighter than I do and never seen a bearing failed.  Maybe it will fail long term over the course of 10 years or so but I dont think the alternator would have a bearing failure before the alternator would fail in of itself and cease to charge.

Another option I read of is to go up with a alternator pully size, it will slow the alternator down but it will also increase the surface area allowing for better grip.  But you got to be careful with this cause you can kill power generation at idle.  Why I will be doing all that math when I start mocking it up on the engine stand.

All I know is I am done with this indecisiveness Ive been having, I already ordered the soft start regulator and I added the 130A 3G alternator to my engine part list.  I am fixing to look up fuses for my fuse holder and see if I can find one around 140A vs the 175A fuse that came with my free fuse holder.  Theres no way in hell I will ever need 130A of power generation.  Only thing next I need to settle my indecisiveness over is my aircleaner.  I still havent purchased that one mustang one I found the price is good but Im just unsure on it for the price.  But I will have to make a decision one way or another.

Mostly the belt is less likely to slip with a bigger pulley because the drive ratio is less.

Just the same way a worn clutch will slip on the highway in 5th but be fine around town (for a little while)

Go check the math.
You will understand.

Oh I plan to check the math eventually.  I think I have the max alternator speed listed and I need to make sure at 5,500 to 6,000 rpm I dont exceed max alternator speed otherwise I will have to up the pulley size.  Ideally I would use the same size pulley my 1G has if the speed is fine.

Gary has a chart of pulley size V alternator speed, and charging output posted along with the test sheet I sent him.

But I have no idea where he has it posted.

I think I saw it in the 3G upgrade section

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Gary has a chart of pulley size V alternator speed, and charging output posted along with the test sheet I sent him.

But I have no idea where he has it posted.

In a very logical place: Documentation/Electrical/Alternators.  The pulley info is on the tab Output Vs RPM, and the test sheet is on the tab DB Electrical 130 Amp Test Results.

And now you try to confound me with logic!  

Gary,  I've noticed at the bottom of your "wiring it" page you have 87 & 87A reversed.
Well, not the terminals reversed, but you want the choke circuit to be on the pulled in side, and normally open.

Just an observation, not criticism.
You've done a great job detailing what's needed.

We should also get together to work on some schematics.

1G to 3G... both with and without ammeter.

2G to 3G...again, with & without

Jim - At first glance I thought you were right on the relay diagram on the Chokes tab, which is the one you are talking about - right?  But then I looked again and I think what has happened is that the "87" and "87a" characters have moved too far to the left.  If they were slid over to the right they'd be right.  Right?  

Isn't 87a the quiescent position and 87 the powered position?  I have to look that up every single time.

That diagram looks to be one I drew and it is drawn poorly.  Very poorly.

But you are right that we need to improve the 3G page.  However, at the moment I'm having a hard time keeping up.  In fact, I'm not.  So can you take a stab at writing up what you think we need?  I can draw up whatever schematics we need to fit what you come up with.

If you don't have the time I'd certainly understand.  I'm "there" myself.

87A is normally closed, and 87 is closed when energized.

But the 'tounge' is shown in the 'out' position (quiescent) with the choke connected there.

The pull-in coil is by convention pulled in by current flowing through it.
The choke should be connected so it only gets power when the stator has power. (Alternator turning)

I'm gonna hound you.
But today is 'Church Day', as opposed to your other six Saturdays.

BTW, I trust your services went well yesterday.
I'm sorry to learn of the passing of one of your congregation.

I will be glad to help.

I'll just snap screen shots of the pages and do some manual markup
(I'm old, and have little connection or computer hardware, but I did live commercial art in another life, as you know)

DUH!  You are right, the choke is in the wrong spot!  

So, I need to fix that awa surely lots of other things.  Yes, please mark things up and I'll do the editing.

The service was actually for my cousin, who was more like a sister to me.  (Her father left when she was young and my father helped raise her.)  But the service was one of the best I've ever seen.  Two of her sons spoke, as did other people, and both hit it out of the park.  And while not everyone could be there, many got to watch via Facebook Live - including my kids.

But yes, today is "Church Day".  However, after church WelderScott has asked that I help him bleed the brakes on his '78 - which has the old cast iron master.  I've toyed with drilling and tapping the cover from one of my masters, which will probably never get used anyway, and using that to put air pressure on via my whizz bang setup.  Would have to put a hole in the gasket, but that shouldn't be a problem.  I wonder if the lids interchange?

Anyway, hound me!

Oh!
Then closer than a cousin, and more like a sister?
I can relate to childhood abandonment.
Your father was a great man to step up and support his sister.  

I'm sorry Gary!

I'm glad that we have the means to come together (Facetime, or a myriad of other applications) in this time of social distancing.

+10 for helping welder Scott!
He certainly did you a solid with BB's crossmember.

This is what makes this forum so special!
Like George posted the other day, or I said to GSM, we are a 'family' and I don't know any one of us that wouldn't do all they can to support another.

Yes, we are a family.  Scott certainly has helped me, and while he doesn't do much on the forum he is "family" in another way - we attend church together.  So I'm happy to help him.

I'm going to push him today to enter his truck in the "show".  Which reminds me, Jim - where is your entry?  

Li'l Red is a wallflower.
She doesn't want to be the center of attention any more than I do.  

Besides, she isn't even a Bullnose (on the outside)