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87 460 Carb'ed Towing Build

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ford4wd08

87 460 Carb'ed Towing Build

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Hey guys,

I'm working on my grandad's 87 F350 with the last year carb'ed 460. I have couple of questions I'm hoping y'all can help me out with.

I put a timing light on it to confirm base timing. I warmed the engine and unhooked the vaccum port on the carb (passenger side above the idle adjustment screw) and plugged it. Set timing to 8 degrees BTDC per sticker under the hood at 800ish rpm (manual trans).

When I hook the vacuum on the distributor back up on the carb it jumps up to above 20 degrees BTDC, I would expect this duraspark system to be on ported vacuum on the carb right? My port has about 10 in/mg on it at idle.

What do you guys seem on your 460's?

Also I pulled the carb today to do a rebuild. I believe this is a replacement carb already and I'm trying to track down a rebuild kit. I got one on Rock Auto already and I'm not impressed. I would rather have a NOS Motorcraft or a Holley.

Part number stamped into the air horn is 80457-2 and looks like a SN of 2919? Looks like it was maybe a replacement from Holley?

I did find this NOS kit on eBay, but not sure it is correct.

https://www.ebay.com/p/14030600058

I'm not completely against replacing this carb either if it makes more sense, just trying to get it to run as well as I can.

Future plans might be a new intake manifold and straight up timing set and maybe a cam, but I'm going to fix everything else before I dive into engine mods. Just want it to run well until I fix everything else.

Jordan
Papaw's Heirlooms
'87 F350 Cab & Chassis Dually with Aluminum Flatbed
Carb'ed 460, ZF5 S-42, 4x4, Dana 60 Solid Axle, Sterling Rear 3.55 Gears
'85 Ford Bronco II 2.8, V6 Duraspark Conversion, A4LD Auto, 4x4

mat in tn

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

that part number is more a universal carb by holley . I have used them well. it will need a basic holley reman kit like you can most likely get at oreillys or the like. however, it is NOT tuned specific to any engine or application. it also has what looks to be a reman sticker already on it. the specific calibrated carb would be best, but this can be made to work great with a little research. time is money and spend each as you can. which power valve. jetting, accel pump cam etc. are what i would want to know first. that way you can match spray and tip in response as close as possible. a little goes a long way when making changes. the 460 did come with a 600cfm and this is one, but cfm is more a rule of the limiting aspect than it is the performance. tuning is key.

grumpin

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

In reply to this post by ford4wd08

Hooked to ported vacuum or straight vacuum is an on going argument, er, discussion.

Is the vacuum can adjustable? Could be at max vacuum.

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

I agree, that's a replacement carb and ported vs manifold will be a discussion.

I like ported, especially with an auto tranny. But it isn't as critical with a manual.

On the timing, while 8 BTDC is factory, I usually go for 10 or 12. However, if you do that you need to make sure your Duraspark box supports the retard function during starting as the engine may kick back.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ford4wd08

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

I agree on the ported for the dizzy advance.

I would have thought the carb port is above the throttle plates and would be ported?

I'm also debating about just replacing it with a new one.

It is hard to know what the baseline should be since this isn't the original carb.

Here is a Holley that looks like it might would work?

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/carburetors/street_warrior/parts/0-80457S

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

The 80457-S is a good replacement carb for the venerable 4180.
The -2 suffix just means it has an electric choke and Ford throttle stud.
It lacks the plumbed bowl vents and the problematic front bowl inlet filter housing.
Plus the idle mixture screws aren't covered and are FAR more accessible than they are in the base flange.

I ran one for years with no problems.

Ford didn't use 'ported' vacuum because it used a thermal vacuum switch in the water neck to pull in more timing if the engine started to overheat.
You can see this if you look at the vacuum routing sticker under the hood.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

In reply to this post by ford4wd08

ford4wd08 wrote

Part number stamped into the air horn is 80457-2 and looks like a SN of 2919? Looks like it was maybe a replacement from Holley?

So cool that you are reviving your granddad's truck!

It's to be expected that you will see a timing jump when reconnecting the vacuum line.
That's why you need to reset the curb idle speed on a warm engine.
11"hg doesn't seem too good for a stock cam. I expect the timing chain is sloppy.

2919 is a date code. The 291st day of ninth year. (Could be 1999, 2009 or even 2019)
At least it has power valve blowout protection.

You definitely want the genuine Holley 37-119 rebuild kit with the blue teflon coated gaskets.
I've never had great success with generic sets.

I've been driving mine since (almost) new.
How many miles are on yours?

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

ArdWrknTrk wrote

So cool that you are reviving your granddad's truck!

You definitely want the genuine Holley 37-119 rebuild kit with the blue teflon coated gaskets.
I've never had great success with generic sets.

I missed the bit about your granddad's truck. Yes, it is cool. As a granddad I'd sure be happy if my grandkids did that.

And amen to the Holley vs generic kit. Back in early '75 I rebuilt the Holley on my '69 Bee with a generic kit. Had always used Holley kits from the day that car was new, and trust me - I'd been through a lot of kits on that carb. But for some reason this time I went generic and then the thing didn't want to start. Turns out the gasket between the metering body and the main body only had one hole in it for the accelerator pump's shot, and I'd put it on upside down.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ford4wd08

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Yes I was lucky enough to get two of my granddad's vehicles. His 85 Bronco II which I daily drive now and his Aluminum flatbed dually.

Here is a picture of the Bronco when I picked it up and what it looks like today. It sat for about 7 years when I went and got it.

Anyhow, thank you for the info on the Holley kit, sounds like the one I have will be ok for my needs with a good rebuild kit.

I know the vaccum ports you mention on the coolant sensors. They aren't hooked up at the moment. This farm truck had some rigging done to it along the way, I'm trying to straighten a lot of that out.

ford4wd08

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Part number stamped into the air horn is 80457-2 and looks like a SN of
2919? Looks like it was maybe a replacement from Holley?
So cool that you are reviving your granddad's truck!

It's to be expected that you will see a timing jump when reconnecting the
vacuum line.
That's why you need to reset the curb idle speed on a warm engine.
11"hg doesn't seem too good for a stock cam. I expect the timing chain is
sloppy.

2919 is a date code. The 291st day of ninth year. (Could be 1999, 2009 or
even 2019)
At least it has power valve blowout protection.

You definitely want the genuine Holley 37-119 rebuild kit with the blue
teflon coated gaskets.
I've never had great success with generic sets.

I've been driving mine since (almost) new.
How many miles are on yours?

Quoted from:
https://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/87-460-Carb-and-Timing-Questions-tp121123p121141.html

I suspect around anywhere from 80k to 180k miles just because it has the 5 digit odometer.

It was bought new by my grandad, but there is no telling how many times it has turned over. It is the original engine though.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

I ask about mileage because I've found around 70-75k the old nylon cam gears start shedding.
Your already retarded cam timing gets worse and worse and the plastic clogs the oil sump pickup.

One way to see just how bad the timing chain slop is is to remove the distributor cap so you can clearly see the rotor and rock the crank back and forth using a 15/16" deep socket and a breaker bar.
Also using your timing light snap the throttle open and closed a few times. Does the timing retard smoothly as the revs drop? Or does it stutter like a loose chain is flailing around inside?

A pooched timing set will have you chasing carburetor problems because the engine wants to spit back and it won't respond to throttle quickly.
Unfortunately Cloyes seems to have discontinued the basic three position street true double roller for 385 series engines.
There are alternatives (like the stock set for '88-on EFI engines)

I understand you wanting to get this truck back to running well before diving in, but you have to consider that a wear item like that plastic gear might be a big part of the problem and can't be ignored.

Pulling the stock front dress down and getting that timing case off can be a big project in itself if it hasn't been touched in 35 years.
There are a few things to watch for and if the coolant hasn't been maintained you're probably looking at a new backing plate, maybe even a timing case, sometimes a damper, you never know until you're in there.

Sorry for being long winded.
BTDT, bought the tee shirt.....

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

mat in tn

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

I will second that. I'm a big proponent of replacing the timing set well before failure. I consider 150k the limit of the chain. one van I had with a 5.0 got chain at 154k then 310 k then 400k and was still running awesome when I sold it at 408k. the front of the engine was all that was ever taken off of that engine barring plugs and wires, filters etc.
if it has never been done then I call that neglected. not as an insult but only as my method of attacking the job. by this I mean I expect to break bolts! I expect to replace hoses. I expect to replace the water pump and the timing cover. and possibly the harmonic damper.
I know that sounds like a lot, but it could be the difference between loving and driving an heirloom vs having that old heap that is never right.

85lebaront2

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

I second everything Jim said. The 1987 460 was a carryover from 1986 as the EFI system wasn't ready (possibly not emission certified). Be glad because it means no catalytic converter to deal with. The original system on those had enough small vacuum lines to drive you crazy. Most had two air pumps and both external and internal delivery of the air.

Here is an (at the time) unmolested 1986 460:

You can see part of the congestion undrhood.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

Yes, that dual A.I.R. pump bracketry is a beast!
And all the brittle little plastic vacuum lines need a lot of care.

I also want to agree with Matt.
It's a good time to replace any old rubber hoses (especially the intake manifold bypass)
That damper rubber could make you tear your hair out if your timing marks slip, so be careful even with the proper puller.

But, as always, diagnose before tearing things apart.
This project would take me the weekend these days, and that's IF I had ALL the parts I need lined up.

Gaskets, coolant, thread sealer, new hose clamps, an oil change is probably in order no matter how careful you are to stuff off the front of the oil pan while scraping the block.
There's a lot of little things that can go smoothly or bad in a hurry.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ford4wd08

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Thanks for all the feedback. No issue on long winded. I want all the data I can get.

Abused is a proper term for this truck as my grandad flogged his equipment or rode it hard and put it up wet as they say.

I'm debating whether the engine would need to be pulled at some point and actually go through things. That way I can be sure where I stand.

It leaks almost everywhere as it is.

The goal is to have the thing run so I can finish the body work and that it has for now. I just have to pull it in and out of the garage. Since the mean kids busted all the glass out of it, I can't keep it outside.

It did run before I just recently pulled the carb, so I have that going for me. I figured I would just rebuild it as is for now.

I do think it will need a new water pump and the the timing chain makes sense for performance alone.

If the freeze plugs aren't rusted out, I could leave the engine in the truck, if I could replace the oil pan gasket with it still in the truck. I can remove the trans for the rear main seal.

I'm willing to do the work and learn as I go.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

I'm going to tell you that doing an oil pan gasket in a 4x4 460 truck is close to impossible. (Oh man the stories! "I'll set it on fire before Id ever consider it again", etc)
The crossmember leaves no room, the block will hit the firewall and you have to remove the oil pump to try and slide the pan out.
Good luck getting the shaft seated and the bolts started through a 1" crack..

As for a 2wd vehicle I would defer to Bill, but I think it's easier to pull the engine.
Of course this means exhausts, and if they are farm abused that might run into serious cost as well.

If you do end up pulling the pan be sure to carefully inspect the oil pickup for shards of nylon.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

Amen, brother! I remember the guy that said that about setting his truck on fire before trying to change out the pan gasket in situ.

Bruno2 and I did it on his truck with a 351W and there's no way I'd ever do it again on a Windsor. But I wouldn't even consider it on a 460.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ford4wd08

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

In reply to this post by ford4wd08

Sounds like it is easiest to pull it.

I actually just welded up a new muffler and y pipe on as some idiots cut off the old muffler as it sat in a field. I believe the manifolds would unbolt from the down pipes, but can cross that bridge later. Guess I could always upgrade if needed if they broke or something.

I'll review my options. Cost isn't the biggest factor, but would like to spread things out over time.

I'll get the carb back on it and work through what I have. I'll check things like you mentioned for the timing chain, that is a job I think I could do and obviously it can be done in the truck.

Gary Lewis

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

I would do a leak-down test before you pull the engine. That will tell you what shape it is in and whether it is worth it to replace gaskets or just rebuild the engine.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 87 460 Carb and Timing Questions

Administrator

In reply to this post by ford4wd08

Yep, if it needs doing, the timing set is involved but it can definitely be done in the truck.
Hopefully there's not too much corrosion and all the bolts come out.

I looked up a decent timing set for another member not long back.

You might be surprised how well the stock cam suits these trucks once the cam is back where it belonged before early '70's emissions regulations.

I'm sorry to hear that vandals smashed your windows. This is the second time this year I've heard that.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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