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It won't stop...I'm helpless!

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85lebaront2

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

It does to me too. In your parts listings, do you have any way to tell if the lifters are the same from a 302 to a 460? I ask, because I have a cam and lifter package I was given for a 460 that is a bit more than I wanted to use (would be good for a carbureted engine) and the cam has rusted a bit from sitting. I believe the lifters are still ok and are definitely pre-Chinesium manufacture.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ReneH

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Hi Bill,

The lifter seems to be the same:

I hope summit will replace the cam a second time...do you think the lifter are the problem, not the cam or both?

René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic

85lebaront2

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

The problems I have been seeing posted all seem to start with the lifters spalling (metal flaking off or just simply wearing in one spot) the cams could also be an issue as the tip of the lobes are supposed to be slightly angled from one side to the other (front to back or back to front), this is to further force the lifters to rotate.

A roller cam is different, because the roller lifters need to stay in proper alignment so the rollers turn freely, but even they are failing due to the rollers seizing or spalling, which then takes out the cam.

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPpFOAd2mGw&t=710s

Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epDJuGlw4us

Video 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-yopGZO94

Video 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzYHae7yXiA

Hopefully you can get these translated so they are understandable, it is a major problem here, where a number of engines are still pushrod valve gear.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Ok, thanks Bill for the video links.
Very interesting stuff.

As I have to tear down the engine a third time, I've asked myself to also change the springs this time. I currently use the original springs of my 302 factory heads.

Viewing the video also caused me to think about this. Not that I'm thinking my springs may have too much force...rather the opposite, cause I haven't changed them before...

What do you think? And if you think a change makes sense, are one of these usable?

Qualcast, Melling or sealed power?

ReneH

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

So, I've told Summit the problem. This time they're send out a new cam without having images, cause the defective one is still installed...as I've said before, I'm very impressed of their service!

Tomorrow I'll tear down the engine's top and make some photos with my stethoscope camera. On Sunday I'll pull the cam...I'll keep you up to date...

Gary Lewis

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

That is really GOOD customer support! How about giving Summit a rating at the page in Bullnose Forum/Marketplace/Reviews/Summit?

So sorry you are having all this trouble!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

81-F150-Explorer

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

In reply to this post by ReneH

I like Sealed Power and used them with success.

But with the problems I'm seeing within this thread, it makes me question the quality of all parts manufacturers.

Time to stock up on old surplus perhaps.

Truck: 1981 F-150 Explorer / Engine: 300-6 California MCU Feedback System / Trans: T-18 - 4 speed / 2.75 Ford Rear Axle Open Diff.

85lebaront2

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

That is what a number of engine builders are doing and why I offered the set that came with a cam I was given.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

So, today I've pulled the lifters and the cam.

See by your own:

This time it kills the lifter from cylinder number 5, outlet. Last time it was the inlet of number 4.

So does anyone has a tip to check the cam I'll get from summit again? It's again the same one from comp cams. They have checked their stock but don't have another brand for the 351W in stock.
As this cam is very popular, they said, they don't have "old" ones...

Or do you think the quality of the lifters is probably more the problem?

The question is what first gives up. Lifters or the camshaft lobes...

Last time I've bought sealed power, this time it were a set from melling. For the next try I've bought enginetech...

I also have re-checked the oil flow by driving the pump with a drill. Oil supply was given on every lifter up to the rocker arms...
I think there is nothing I've forgotten to check, regarding my block, heads and valve system.

I also have ordered some new valve springs. But I can't imagine that they can be the problem, cause I use the 302 stock heads with the original springs. If they haven't their original tension anymore, this won't affect the lifters, rather the valves, as far as I know.

I don't want to open the engine a third time, so I'm happy for every hint I'll get to check as much as possible before installing the new parts.

I still have my original 302 cam, but it isn't in very good condition...here are the bearings run-in, that's why I also have replaced the bearing shells in my block.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Gary Lewis

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

Wow! That’s the worst lifter I’ve ever seen!

As for what fails first, I don’t know. But that lifter doesn’t appear to have been heat-treated, so I’d bet it was the culprit.

Assuming you are coating the cam and lifters with break-in lube and spinning the oil pump to pre-lube I don’t know what else to do.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ReneH

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Yes, but is it possible that a non-heat-treated lifter is able to damage a lobe like this? That's what I've asked myself...

I've done a test with a punch to my original "old" cams lobes and also the the new one...both are easy to punch...

I've done the same test with the first lifters that fail...no way to punch it...
This time the holes from punching are much deeper...so, you are probably right...

I know, I won't apply the same force for every test...but in my opinion it shouldn't be as easy to punch a lifters surface...

85lebaront2

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, if you go back up the thread a bit, I sent him 4 links to cam and lifter failure videos on YouTube. FWIW, Ford, GM and Stellantis are all experiencing premature cam and lifter failures even with roller lifters. Basic problem seems to be outsourcing to China by manufacturers of cams and lifters.

The lifters are wearing through on flat tappet cams, even though some are definitely rotating (whole bottom worn in a cupped in pattern). Roller lifters are exhibiting spalling where the hard roller surface cracks and starts flaking off. Some have exhibited what looks like seized rollers, which then destroy the cam lobes associated with them.

I haven't seen so many wiped out cam lobes in years, it used to be very common on Chevrolet engines. We would get one in at Preston, complaint would be missing and backfiring in the carburetor under load. Always would be a wiped out exhaust lobe.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

I’ve not watched any of the videos, but hope that Steve/FoxFord33 has. He may want to run that 5.8L as is given all of the troubles with all kinds of cams and lifters.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

If you look at the wear pattern, it is straight across the bottom of the lifter, this tells the lifter was not rotating in the bore and second, just eyeballing it, the lobe may well be flat across the top which will also contribute to failure. The lobes are supposed to have a slight taper across the tip, not much, but enough so the tip will have the load concentrated in one area, hopefully near the OD of the lifter forcing it to rotate as it lifts.

As for seeing lifters like that, I have, on a small block Chevy, worn through, mushroomed to where they won't come out. A pinhole to lube the contact area as was suggested on a FB group might help, but crappy Chinesium that is case hardened rather than a good alloy steel through hardened is going to crack, spall and rapidly wear once the hardened surface is breached.

Years ago, some of the early hydraulic lifters had a pressed in end cap where they sat on the cam, maybe we need the manufacturers to return to that.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

mat in tn

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

just going to add a tiny theory here. when steel is hardened it gets easier to slip the two surfaces together. like two plates of glass. if the steel is softer it would tend to "grip" more and induce a more positive spin. based on this I would look even more closely at the ability of these lifters to not only rotate but to turn the engine and watch them do so. I know there is a real product problem as we keep seeing it in the shop also, but it does make it where we must scrutinize our fitting even more. the "rough" surface of a flat tappet cam should induce rotation rather easily.

ReneH

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Ok, I don't want to cut this gerneral discussion, but I really have a problem right now...

I have had checked all lifters that they rotate after setting them in. I've marked every single lifter and turned the engine with a ratchet. All of them are spinning around. But you see what happens directly after the break-in...

So what should I do to prevent this? I only hope, Bill will find his "old" unused lifter ls, that I can try this ones..

I'm not interested in tearing down the engine a third time...

Maybe I should also clear the sharp edges of the Lobes this time...I know, the lifers aren't in contract with them...but what should I damage by cleaning the edges?

Is it true that the comp cams are coated with a rough coating?

ArdWrknTrk

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

The 'rough coating' should be nitriding.

This provides a hardened surface and enough 'tooth' to keep lubricating oil at the lifter cam interface.
Much the same that you want crosshatching in the cylinder bores and not a perfectly smooth surface.

I'm really sorry to see what you are going through with this break-in, Rene.
It makes me doubt everything I think I know well.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

81-F150-Explorer

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Wow! That’s the worst lifter I’ve ever seen!

And that was brand new installed right? Sheesh! Putting an old worn out lifter back in the engine is better than that! Calling it

would be an understatement.

Something needs to be done here with QC. It will ruin things (and not just the engines) if allowed to continue.

Truck: 1981 F-150 Explorer / Engine: 300-6 California MCU Feedback System / Trans: T-18 - 4 speed / 2.75 Ford Rear Axle Open Diff.

85lebaront2

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Administrator

Chinesium, what you get when you outsource stuff to China.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

ReneH

Re: It won't stop...I'm helpless!

Thanks for all your sympathy!

In my helplessness, I've additionally ordered a set of lifters from comp cams High Energy Hydraulic Lifters 832-16. Maybe I have more luck using the cam and the lifters from one brand and all bought from summit racing...

If it also fails, I maybe have better chances to get some more compensation from them or from comp cams...

I will do photos and videos during the installation, this time for documenting that I've done nothing wrong.

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