Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical

Bill - Wow, that is one heck of a project on the engine.  I had no idea that the oil supply and returns were so different.  And then there's the registration.  Plus the ignition.  That is a major project - almost as big as going with EEC-V.  

And on the alternator, I agree with where you said the fans are.  But I'd like to know if the slots are intakes or exhausts as that could alter the way I make the bonnet.  As for the extra fan, my nephew mentioned that as well.  But I would rather not do that - if the cover works adequately without it.  And I think it will, although I'll test it with my thermocouple when the time comes.

Rusty - I've seen a spec somewhere that says the LRC function is only enabled at idle, although I don't know where I saw that.  But it is really a ramp and not just a delay.  You can see that in a chart and discussion I posted here.

As for the heat, remember this is a 460 and they generate a lot of heat.  And all of that heat has to come out regardless of what radiator you have.  So even though I have a brand new 4-row aluminum radiator, when the truck is sitting there idling, as it would be when winching and airing up the tires, there's a lot of heat.

But I don't know that I am going with the 220A alternator.  I think I will, but it hasn't been decided - partially because I've not found the one I want.  As Jim pointed out, Power Bastards appears to be using the small case unit, which seems counterproductive as that would give less room for the cooling air.  I've not heard back from them on the email I sent them on Thursday, but it has been the July 4th weekend so maybe the one to reply has been off since then.

Gary, now do you understand why I took those rubber air deflectors and bottom cover from that later F150 and installed them on Darth? The idea is to keep to hot air from behind the radiator from coming back around to the front side. Since there really isn't much area for it to exit back and out with the 460, it curls back underneath and right back through the radiator. Moving even at a low speed helps immensely, but sitting in traffic that isn't going to happen which is why I am trying to block the re circulation of the heated air from the radiator.

A possible thought, but I would want to have a spare set of inner fenders, would be to provide an outlet for the air forward of the engine block on each side. This would put the air going outside of the frame and making it less likely to return through the radiator.

Bill - That makes sense.  I'll have to think about that, but so far I don't have a problem and rarely get into stop and go traffic.

Gary Lewis wrote

Bill - Wow, that is one heck of a project on the engine.  I had no idea that the oil supply and returns were so different.  And then there's the registration.  Plus the ignition.  That is a major project - almost as big as going with EEC-V.  

And on the alternator, I agree with where you said the fans are.  But I'd like to know if the slots are intakes or exhausts as that could alter the way I make the bonnet.  As for the extra fan, my nephew mentioned that as well.  But I would rather not do that - if the cover works adequately without it.  And I think it will, although I'll test it with my thermocouple when the time comes.

Rusty - I've seen a spec somewhere that says the LRC function is only enabled at idle, although I don't know where I saw that.  But it is really a ramp and not just a delay.  You can see that in a chart and discussion I posted here.

As for the heat, remember this is a 460 and they generate a lot of heat.  And all of that heat has to come out regardless of what radiator you have.  So even though I have a brand new 4-row aluminum radiator, when the truck is sitting there idling, as it would be when winching and airing up the tires, there's a lot of heat.

But I don't know that I am going with the 220A alternator.  I think I will, but it hasn't been decided - partially because I've not found the one I want.  As Jim pointed out, Power Bastards appears to be using the small case unit, which seems counterproductive as that would give less room for the cooling air.  I've not heard back from them on the email I sent them on Thursday, but it has been the July 4th weekend so maybe the one to reply has been off since then.

Thats interesting.  From my understanding every time the rpm drops it takes the LRC delay to ramp it back up, so if you do a cold start with EFI that idles up to 1,200 rpm cold idle it would in my case take 10 seconds to ramp up to output and then when the EFI idles down to its full idle set point of 650 rpm it would take another 10 seconds to ramp back up to its output.  Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the post you linked to where it was mentioned that you let the clutch out some and the engine idled down and so did the voltage output which came back up after 2.5 seconds?

My build might not like a 10 second ramp up especially if my nominal voltage drops below 11.5V running the EFI system and the battery is slightly depleted from cranking.  I will have to try it and see and if it seems to pose a issue I will have to get one like you have with just the 2.5 second ramp up time.

Ah, yes the big blocks would always generate way more heat than the small blocks would.  We have a guy at work that constantly whines about 200 - 220 degrees on his big block and we keep telling him not to worry about it that big blocks will always run hot.  He even started whining over the LS swap we did on his blazer cause it runs at 212 degrees even though that is what all late model engines run at from the factory.

On the radiator I looked at an aluminum radiator as a possible upgrade if my HD 2 core copper radiator doesnt cut cooling my built 302 but I think it should none the less.  Youd think they would still offer copper radiators seeing as a 4 core aluminum radiator is at the same price point as a 4 core copper radiator if you can find them.

Rusty, the copper itself is way more expensive than aluminum on a pound for pound basis.
Add the fact that a copper rad is at least twice as heavy and you'll see why a company that makes a zillion radiators a year isn't going to use copper.

Besides aluminum is compatible with modern aluminum blocks, heads and coolant.
Copper and aluminum in the same electrolyte makes a battery.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Rusty, the copper itself is way more expensive than aluminum on a pound for pound basis.
Add the fact that a copper rad is at least twice as heavy and you'll see why a company that makes a zillion radiators a year isn't going to use copper.

Besides aluminum is compatible with modern aluminum blocks, heads and coolant.
Copper and aluminum in the same electrolyte makes a battery.

Correct, youd still think they would at least offer it even if its a build to order.  I personally dont like aluminum due to oxidation and I know about the electrolysis from work, the aluminum radiators we get from Enthropy comes with a port near the lower radiator hose for a Zinc anode as well as having a machine screw threaded on the hex head for attachment of a ground strap to ground the radiator to prevent electrolysis.  For me I just cant justify $600 for an aluminum radiator for our trucks when a copper one would cost roughly the same.  Plus every aluminum radiator I found for our trucks were universal fit that requires drilling holes in the core support to mount it like a GM radiator as they dont have provisions for the OE strap mounts.

With the aluminum that a stock engine has such as the aluminum timing cover you really should be running a zinc anode to protect your cooling system.  It is why I had to buy a new timing cover for my 302 build cause the old one was nearly pitted through and through and I didnt trust it on a new engine.

The Champion MC1451 4-row aluminum radiator I have in Big Blue cost $305 and fit without modification of any kind.  Unfortunately they are out of stock at the moment, but with a lifetime warranty I'll buy one for Dad's truck when the time comes.

Gary Lewis wrote

The Champion MC1451 4-row aluminum radiator I have in Big Blue cost $305 and fit without modification of any kind.  Unfortunately they are out of stock at the moment, but with a lifetime warranty I'll buy one for Dad's truck when the time comes.

Nice, most of the radiators I looked at are out of stock as I really want to replace mine instead of trying to flush it out for the new engine.  Everything I found that might work is out of stock or has been discontinued.

Not sure how good these are but Radiator Express has a listing for a Cold-Case wide tube 2 core radiator that cools like a 3 and 4 core aluminum radiator and they are stamped aluminum that once painted black will look no different than OE copper.  They want $650 for it but on back order currently.  Also doesnt cite what hp rating they are good for, just that its all aluminum, 100% tig welded with 16 fins per inch and is a direct fitment for 80-84 Truck and 81 - 84 bronco.

https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/RADIATOR/FORD/1982/F-150/base/50l-v8302cid/229493/1121296

There is also a listing for a 3 core copper radiator that is in stock for $466 and its the Radiator Express brand and yet again no mention of hp rating that all aftermarket radiators I have seen state.
https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/RADIATOR/FORD/1982/F-150/base/50l-v8302cid/39285/1121296

If I were to get one of the above I probably would go with the aluminum one just because it has an actual metal drain while the copper uses the cheap easily stripped out plastic drain.

Which ever one I go with would have to be OE spec dimension wise as I am retaining OE mechanical fan so I need the attachment points for the OE fan shroud as I have no desire to cut and fabricate a mount.

Last I looked the Champion 3-row aluminum radiator was available, and my 4-row took the factory shroud perfectly so I'm sure the 3-row would also.

Gary Lewis wrote

Last I looked the Champion 3-row aluminum radiator was available, and my 4-row took the factory shroud perfectly so I'm sure the 3-row would also.

I saw the 3 row from Champion its CC561B, says it cools up to 700hp but its out of stock as well.  Thats the same issue I have getting engine parts for my engine build, everything is either out of stock, on back order, or discontinued because they dont know when they will get it back in stock.

So Gary...
Our '87 460 thread banter with Jordan has me looking at the 3G upgrade page and I need to point out some discrepancy when it gets to donor sources under "choosing an alternator"

First, I want to say that all (carb and EFI) 300/4.9 engines should take the 8.25" because of their unique bracket design.
This is what I've seen, and has been shown by others on forums and webpages.
I see you have this questioned in red.
Perhaps David, Larry and Dave can post some pics with a ruler to put this to bed.

Second, you have listings under donor sources and Lester numbers where Taurus/Sable/Windstar 3.0 and 3.8 engines are shown for both 7" and 8.25" spacing.
This is incorrect!
The 3.0 V-6 uses the 7", and the 3.8 uses the 8.25" exclusively.
The first picture under Lester numbers shows the hollowed out and cross braced extended mounting ears indicative of the 8.25" mount.
The second two pics are of the 7" mount (no hollows in the ear)

ETA: as you well know the EFI 7.5l trucks and vans use the 7" mount, so shouldn't be listed with the first (8.25") alternator.

Also, I would try not to include the 10mm untapped hole version of the second model ( 7765, 7770, 7771)
If you use one of these you need to find a much longer 3/8 bolt... and a nut.
It requires you to have three hands to tension, tighten and back up the fastener.
OR! You need a 3/8-16 helicoil kit.

The 8x1.25 mm hole can be easily tapped 3/8-16 and you only need one wrench.
Most any of us that work on these trucks have that tap.
In fact I run it right through the 8mm hole because the alloy is not problematic at all.

Otherwise I  want to thank you for all the effort you've put into organizing and updating the page.     

Thanks, Jim.  This will help a lot.  As said, that tab is a dog's breakfast and is begging to be cleaned up.  And you pointed out things I'd not even noticed.  

I'm not sure when I'll get to it given all that is going on, but I will do it.

Thanks again.

I'm sure you're always busy.
This isn't meant to be pressure.
I just wanted to comment/critique while I had the page open in chrome and not visiting the forum through a Gmail link where I can't open multiple tabs and would lose my reply.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

So Gary...
Our '87 460 thread banter with Jordan has me looking at the 3G upgrade page and I need to point out some discrepancy when it gets to donor sources under "choosing an alternator"

First, I want to say that all (carb and EFI) 300/4.9 engines should take the 8.25" because of their unique bracket design.
This is what I've seen, and has been shown by others on forums and webpages.
I see you have this questioned in red.
Perhaps David, Larry and Dave can post some pics with a ruler to put this to bed.

Second, you have listings under donor sources and Lester numbers where Taurus/Sable/Windstar 3.0 and 3.8 engines are shown for both 7" and 8.25" spacing.
This is incorrect!
The 3.0 V-6 uses the 7", and the 3.8 uses the 8.25" exclusively.
The first picture under Lester numbers shows the hollowed out and cross braced extended mounting ears indicative of the 8.25" mount.
The second two pics are of the 7" mount (no hollows in the ear)

ETA: as you well know the EFI 7.5l trucks and vans use the 7" mount, so shouldn't be listed with the first (8.25") alternator.

Also, I would try not to include the 10mm untapped hole version of the second model ( 7765, 7770, 7771)
If you use one of these you need to find a much longer 3/8 bolt... and a nut.
It requires you to have three hands to tension, tighten and back up the fastener.
OR! You need a 3/8-16 helicoil kit.

The 8x1.25 mm hole can be easily tapped 3/8-16 and you only need one wrench.
Most any of us that work on these trucks have that tap.
In fact I run it right through the 8mm hole because the alloy is not problematic at all.

Otherwise I  want to thank you for all the effort you've put into organizing and updating the page.     

Now that makes me want to go look up the 3G alternator I am looking at for my swap which is listed for the 1990-93 Taurus 3.8 V6 and what thread the tensioner bolt is on the alternator ear.  I dont mind tapping it but I do want to reuse the OE bolt since it has the teeth to bite in and not slip.

Rusty, I use the 1992 3.8l Taurus/Sable alternator in my truck.
It is 8.25" C-C with the 8x1.25mm adjuster tapped out to 3/8-16
Lester #7752

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Rusty, I use the 1992 3.8l Taurus/Sable alternator in my truck.
It is 8.25" C-C with the 8x1.25mm adjuster tapped out to 3/8-16
Lester #7752

Well then thats good, now I just need to decide do I drill the threads out larger and install helicoil or just trust the aluminum threads themselves to hold tight rope tension on the single V belt.

Hopefully I dont run into any problems pulling the regulator off for my Motorcraft NOS one, I am looking at the Remy or Delco one on rock auto thats brand new as they are cheaper than the remans from even DB Electrical.

RA buys obsolete inventory by the ton. (literally scrap weight)
The exchange rate and current inflation have sure driven the price up.
I used to get these for ~$75 delivered.

You shouldn't use too much belt tension. It will trash the bearings.
I haven't had any problems with the casting stripping out.

Yes, RA buys obsolete inventory.  And some of those parts appear to have been returns.  It is so bad that my nephew, the mechanical engineer turned mechanic, will not install parts from RA.  He says way too many of them are bad in the box.

I've not had the same experience, but he has and will not even install the part if you bring it to him.

Jim, there is a spare Taurus one in the trunk of the Lincoln Continental sitting at Pete's in Newport News that I should grab next time I am over there and can get to it.

Looks like 7" on my alternator. It's the stock 1G. Pretty sure it's the 60A variety since I have factory air.