Nothing Special home ('wheeling) movies

Bummer - unless it was to you.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  But I didn't know those S10 ZR2's were that capable.  His really did well compared to the Jeep....

Stock the S-10 had 31" tires and the clearance to use them.  That's the same as the green Jeep from my first videos, so that's about a wash.

The Jeep is smaller so in tight places it has a big advantage.  On the other hand, the S-10, with it's longer wheelbase, is a more stable platform, especially on steep climbs or descents.  On these trips it wasn't ever that tight, and it wasn't ever that steep, so again about a wash.

The S-10 had more compliant suspension than the Jeep, but on a bigger platform.  The S-10 probably gets the advantage here on the trails we were on.

And the biggest difference was the rear locker in the S-10.

So yes, the S-10 did very well.  It'll show up in another trip or two as well, so you'll see it a little more.

Obviously a compliant suspension and a rear locker makes a tremendous difference.  

To contrast, my high school buddies and I made a "dune buggy" out of a '37 Chevy panel truck.  We ditched the body, chopped the frame 36", took the center out of spare wheels and welded the rims to another pair of rims for duals, and took it offroading.  And promptly got stuck with one wheel hanging in the breeze and spinning madly.  The stock rear suspension wouldn't let it drop to the ground, and w/o a locker it was free to spin.

Yours truly grabbed the wheel, when it was stopped, and had my buddy let out SLOWLY on the clutch.  That was just enough to move the thing forward and get the wheel back on the ground and we could drive again.

If we'd have known what we were doing we'd have pulled a leaf or two out of the rear springs, and maybe have welded the diff up.  But we had no clue so we had the worst of both worlds - a stiff suspension and an open diff.  

Our next 'wheeling trip was in 1998 to the Black Hills in South Dakota.  The kids were 4 and 2 and we brought both of them.  We flat-towed the Jeep behind Lesley's 1993 Explorerand stayed in Yogi Bear's Jellystone Park just south of Rapid City.  The campground had a pool, a TV room with Hanna-Barbera cartoons on video tape and a "train" ride with Yogi every night!  The kids loved all of that!  We also did a lot of touristy stuff to break up the trip (and got ice cream at Mt. Rushmore several times).  That all kept the trip more fun for everyone.  In fact, while this was our first trip to the Black Hills I think we've been there about 8 times now.

But yes, this was still a 'wheeling trip.  There was this new thing called "The Internet" and I had made contact with a guy in a local 4WD club who had suggest some maps I should get.  I met with him on our first day there and he pointed me to some good places to try.  We also made plans to meet up on our last day and he'd guide me on a trail!

We didn't get much video of our first few days.  It was more exploring and not a lot of very difficult challenges.  But we did get some video of a trail I was told was named "Old Miner."  It was mostly a powerline road, with some very steep hills with slightly loose gravel.  It doesn’t look like much in the video, but these hills were hard to walk up or down.  It was a little spooky starting down one the first time, not knowing if I’d be able to drive back up it, but it turned out to be a piece of cake.



This next trail is the one that the local guy guided us on.  He said it was called “Trapper's Run”.  Looking back, as much fun as we had on our other trips, this was the first real rock crawling we’d done other than Spring Creek Trail.  Being able to watch someone else do it first, having an experienced spotter, and knowing that even if I did break I’d be able to get out all made it possible to push my limits farther than I otherwise would’ve.  I also learned to air down tires this day!  I think I went down to about 15 psi.



That's all the video from this trip.  Thanks for reading and watching!

Now you are getting into some more difficult stuff!  Hard to tell in the first video how steep it is, but you get some sense of it when the back end of the Jeep walks a bit as the locker kicks in.

But that rock crawling was awesome!  The Jeep was pretty well dialed in, save for the carb ("Don't stall it!") and it sure came up those rocks nicely - although it didn't seem to do the bumpers any good.  

But you were down to 15 psi on the 2nd video?  Didn't look like it in the first video, although in the 2nd they did seem a bit softer.  Yes?

The Jeep squirming around like you say is the best clue to how steep it is.  Another clue to how steep it is when the Jeep is on the flat at the bottom of the hill you can see a lot of the top surface because you're looking down at it.  But as the Jeep starts pointing up the hill at you all you can see is the front.

I actually even had the carb dialed in pretty well by then.  If I'd had lower gearing (my crawl ratio was 34:1) I don't think I'd have had any trouble.  But I had the idle backed way off to keep the speeds lower, so I still stalled some.

You'll see in later videos that I eventually replaced the rear bumper to improve my departure angle.  I always thought about replacing the front, but never got around to it.  It generally wasn't much f a problem (although you'll see a place where it did hang me up in the videos of my next trip).

And yes, I was still at full street pressure (30 psi?) in the first video, but down to 15 psi in the second.  I can't say I noticed a huge difference in traction, but the improvement in ride was enough to convince me it was worth doing.  And later as I did more rock crawling I saw more of the traction benefits.

My crawl ratio in 1st gear is 56:1, and in 2nd it is 29:1.  So you were basically starting in my 2nd gear.  Yikes!  No wonder you stalled it from time to time.   

As for airing down, I'm thinking 15 psi was still too high for the light weight of the Jeep and the stiff sidewall of the tires.  I'm not seeing much flex in the tires, although I can see a difference in the way the Jeep rode.  Didn't you say you are down to something like 12 psi on the Bronco?

But we won't compare departure angles.  Big Blue isn't in the same league.  

I always wanted a lower crawl ratio in the Jeep, but it never made the top of the priority list (never even close actually).  The close-ratio T-18 that Jeep used only has a 4:1 1st gear and the Model 20 transfer case is only 2:1.  So even with 4.27 axle gears it still crawled pretty fast.

My 3rd 'wheeling trip (no video) was in my '85 F-250.  The 6.69:1 first gear of the NP435 and the ~2.7:1 of the transfer case (I don't recall exactly which one) gave me a crawl ratio of 64:1, even with 3.54 axle gears.  That made me realize what I was missing in the Jeep.  The thing that (mostly) saved the Jeep was that the 258 six would idle down pretty well.

15 psi wasn't bad, but there's no way a CJ5 should be running load range E tires.  Eventually I switched to load range C.  You'll see that in a few more trips.

And I ran 15 psi in my Bronco until about a year ago when I dropped to 11 or 12 (whatever my tire deflaters are set to).  It's not really that I thought that 15 was too high, I just know that people with bead locks say that lower is better, and usually run 4 - 8 psi.  I've never lost a bead at 15 so I just decided to try to push it a little farther.  So far so good, but for the most part I've got no complaint with 15 psi.

But there's no way I'm going back to load range E tires on my light trail rigs!

As to departure angle, there's a reason that vehicles like CJs and Broncos are sometimes called "bobtails"!

Yes, load range E's don't make sense for a purely trail vehicle.  But on Big Blue I think they do.  And with his weight 15 psi seems to work pretty well.  However, the amount of friction that creates is amazing.  It would be hard for the truck to roll away unless it was a pretty steep incline.  And that surely factors into the 4 MPG.  I've actually wondered if 20 psi for the stuff that Janey and I are going to do in January might be a good compromise.

Anyway, the NP435's 1st gear is amazing.  I sure wish it had an overdrive as that .  But, had I gone with 4.10's instead of the 3.55's I'd have had 65:1 in 1st on the ZF5.  Still, the 56:1 seems to work pretty well.  And the 460 doesn't mind being pulled down either.

So, when do you head to Moab?  What changes are you making before then?  Not that this is the thread for that, but...

Our next 'wheeling trip is still up in the air.  Lesley wants to go to Bryce Canyon and/or Zion national parks.  That's pretty close to Hurricane Utah which also has some pretty good fourwheeling, including sand dunes which would be a new challenge!  But I'm a little nervous about doing something that new to me without some backup (the idea of getting stuck miles back in the dunes doesn't appeal to me as much as it might have 30 years ago).  And I don't know much about the rockcrawling trails there.  I've seen some video that makes it look a lot like Moab, but every video I've seen has parts that look to be a little beyond what I'm real comfortable doing alone.  So some more research is needed, otherwise we might go to the southwestern Utah parks but still 'wheel in Moab.

Anyway, the tentative schedule for that is something like September 2022.  Having been in Utah in the heat of September and May, I really don't relish the idea of being there in June, July or August!  And I don't think I'll have the Bronco ready by May.  Because since you asked, the plan this winter / spring is a pretty major redo of the front suspension (among other things).  However, rather than clutter this tread with that discussion I'll shift this to my Bronco build thread at this point.

Sounds like you are planning for my favorite time of year out there - September.  Kids are back in school so the crowds are smaller and the weather is better.  I'm envious - of the trip, but not all the work on the Bronco.

In 2000 we went to Ouray Colorado.  Lesley and both of my sons (ages 6 and 4) came along, but it was just us with no other vehicles.  We really enjoyed Ouray.  It was great to be able to 'wheel well above treeline, but still camp low enough that altitude sickness wasn't a factor.

The first couple of days were mostly scenic trails rather than big challenges.  We took photos but no video.  That is, until the end of day 2 when we found ourselves at the top of Poughkeepsie Gulch, heading down.

We were back in Ouray in 2018, and Poughkeepsie Gulch was quite a difficult trail in spots then.  But in 2000 it was a really good beginner's challenge.  There were a few places going down that I was a little spooked, but as we looked at the first place, trying to figure out if we could do it, another family came down in a couple of TJ Wranglers (new at that time).  Only one of the people in that group dared drive on some of the sections, but as he shuttled their two Jeeps down I was able to watch how it went and ended up deciding that I could do it too.



The next day we took on Black Bear Road.  Lesley was pretty spooked by shelf roads, so I'm not sure how I got her to go on this!  But she was a trooper!  She ended up staying in the Jeep the entire trail, so we only have video from the passenger's seat, and only from just past Adios Curve to the second switchback.  But that's the part that best captures Black Bear anyway.  (And in the audio you get a picture of what it's like to 'wheel with two very young boys!)



We decided to go back to Poughkeepsie again the next day, but to drive up it this time.  We have a lot more video of my boys playing on the rocks (including driving their Jeeps, and my older son's is a flatfender!) than of me playing on the rocks with my CJ5.  We also watched a couple other well-built Jeeps play and we were able to see what lines we wanted to try (or really didn't want to try).  Anyway, here's the little bit of video we have of me on the rocks (with a little of my kids).



After that we packed up camp and headed north to Idaho Springs to run Spring Creek Trail again.  I made it through the rock garden a little easier this time than I had in 1993 due to more experience.  But it was still a challenge.  And in one spot here is where you can see my front bumper hindered me.  I think I'd have made it over that rock with a stubby bumper.



And that concludes that trip.  Thanks for reading and watching!

Nice videos!  And such good memories of your boys.  

The first one of Poughkeepsie Gulch sure looks familiar.  By then we'd gotten a bit of experience so it wasn't terribly daunting.  But it was in that stretch that the little 4Runner lifted a front wheel and he had to engage the front locker to make it through.  Either I took a different line or something 'cause BB didn't have that problem in the same spot.

Black Bear still looks daunting.  But I still want to do it.  

The second round on Poughkeepsie looks like you'd gotten your "wings" and knew just what to do.  You made it look easy.  

But the Spring Creek Trail sure didn't look easy.  I think I'll pass on that one as BB doesn't have the ground, or should I say rock, clearance that appears to be needed.  Nor the turning radius.  Man, I was about to crush my coffee cup as I watched you hitting that rock with the bumper!  And the bumper actually lifts a bit in relation to the rest of the Jeep.  

The lack of a front locker was evident as well.  A couple of times you spun the rear tires and the front tire I could see didn't turn.

It is interesting what you can learn when you study a video.  Seeing the bouncing with street pressures in the tires, the ground clearance and turning radius needed on some trails, and what the lack of a front locker does sure helps me understand the advantages of various things.

Great videos!  Thanks!  It makes me want to GO!  

Gary Lewis wrote

....  The second round on Poughkeepsie looks like you'd gotten your "wings" and knew just what to do.  You made it look easy.  

This was my sixth 'wheeling trip, so I hope I'd learned at least a little by then!  But yes, I was starting to get more confidence.  But the trail itself wasn't all that hard back in 2000 either.

Gary Lewis wrote

But the Spring Creek Trail sure didn't look easy.  I think I'll pass on that one as BB doesn't have the ground, or should I say rock, clearance that appears to be needed.  Nor the turning radius.  Man, I was about to crush my coffee cup as I watched you hitting that rock with the bumper!  And the bumper actually lifts a bit in relation to the rest of the Jeep.  

I never even made it to this part of the trail when we tried it in 2018.  I couldn't get past the "Don't stall it!" point from an earlier video.  So I think passing on it now is a good idea!

As to the bumper moving, that's just a little frame flex.  The core support / grill on a CJ5 is attached to the front crossmember with one bolt in the center of the vehicle.  Other than that the entire front clip is cantilevered off the tub.  So any frame flex from the front body mounts forward shows up as movement between the front bumper and the grill/fenders.  I'm not saying it was just a love tap!  But it's not the same as if you saw that kind of movement on Big Blue!

And my hitting that same rock twice is a learning experience for anyone watching.  You can see me lean out to the left to get a better view of what was going on there.  But I had no idea why I couldn't get past it.  After the second time I got out and saw what I was dealing with.  My right front was dropping in a hole and setting the front bumper on the rock.  I had no chance there and couldn't see it from the left side.  After seeing it I moved a foot or so to the left and made it pretty easily.

And this is another place where the trail looks pretty level in a video or picture, but is actually going up a really steep hill.  You get some sense of that from how much I roll back on restarts

Gary Lewis wrote

The lack of a front locker was evident as well.  A couple of times you spun the rear tires and the front tire I could see didn't turn.

Yeah, two lockers makes a big difference.  And although I've never tried it, I'm beginning to think that a single locker in the front would be of more benefit that one in the rear.  I won't have an automatic locker in the front of a vehicle that will be driven on snowy freeways.  And from the little experience I've had with a front auto locker on trails I know it's pretty noticeable (not in a good way) just about all the time.  Still, if I was building another trail rig I'd be pretty tempted to try an auto locker in the front and a selectable in the rear.

Gary Lewis wrote

It is interesting what you can learn when you study a video.  Seeing the bouncing with street pressures in the tires, the ground clearance and turning radius needed on some trails, and what the lack of a front locker does sure helps me understand the advantages of various things.

Great videos!  Thanks!  It makes me want to GO!  

Those are two of the benefits of watching other's 'wheeling videos: learning and motivation!  I've learned a lot from watching other people's videos.  It's nice if I can pay some of that forward.

I didn't realize how the core support is held on.  So it makes sense that things would rotate when you hit the rock.  Or, rather, dropped onto the rock as the tire dipped down.  Man, that made a CLANG that come through the headphones I was using very well.  

On the lockers, I don't think I'd like a single locker in the front.  But, you are right not to go with an auto locker up there.  No way, Jose!  I feel Big Blue's rear Truetrac "work" as I make a corner and the tires go over paint stripes.  Apparently that is enough loss of friction to engage the locker, and if that was up front it might be a problem.

I'm extremely happy with the Truetrac in back and the OX up front.  The Truetrac just does its thing w/o requiring any input, and we made almost all of the trails in CO w/o engaging the OX.  But there were a couple of times that it felt like the right thing to do was to engage it to ensure we'd get over whatever we'd encountered w/o issue.  Not sure it was needed, but it sure felt good to have it available with the flip of a switch.

Anyway, thanks so much for the education you've given me on 'wheeling.  Your help setting Big Blue up as well as the trails to try made a huge difference.  And now watching the videos I am learning even more.  

2001 was another rare trip where I wasn't alone.  My friend with the S-10 was along again on this trip to the Black Hills in South Dakota.

Another significant thing about this trip is that with our boys being 7 and 5 years old we were realizing that a CJ5 was not going to work for us much longer.  I love the smaller Jeeps, but when you put 4 people in a CJ5 you don't have room to also bring lunch!  And two of the people better be really little if it's going to be a very long day.  After this trip I started shopping for a bigger trail vehicle, buying my Bronco in 2002.

But we weren't done with the Jeep yet!  We started this trip with a little 'wheeling in the Badlands.  There wasn't much of a challenge on the trails we found, but it was very different scenery, and was a lot of fun to do.



Our next trail day was in an area I was told was called Calamity Canyon.  We didn't have a great map so we sort of meandered around (you can't be lost if you're not trying to get anywhere in particular!).  We found a few interesting challenges in our explorations.



The next day we explored another trail system that was marked as Horselt Gulch on my map (I keep calling it that even though that may have been a typo since I've also seen it called Horsely Gulch).  In our wanderings we ran into a couple of locals in another CJ5.  They asked if we wanted to go 'wheeling, and of course the answer was yes!  They led us up this steep, rocky hill that was kind of fun.  Then it started raining and they took on a much harder rock crawl than we were up to, so we headed back to camp.



We took the next day off 'wheeling to do touristy, but then we started up a trail called Warrior Gulch.  These was a fun little rock crawl at the beginning, and then the trail started climbing a hill in the woods.  There was a lot of sidehill and eventually I slid off the trail.  After getting everyone else out of the Jeep (and into the poison ivy-infested woods) I tried backing the Jeep back onto the trail, but got hung up on a stump.  Some work with a hi-lift and a come-along was necessary to get me back on the trail.  I was pretty nervous during some of the recovery, but we made it with no injuries or damage.

A fun result of this was that my 5 year old became an expert at spotting poison ivy!  He'd be looking out of the Jeep as we were driving and say "there's some!"  And every time we checked he was right!  (And no one ended up itching.)



Our final trail of the trip was Prospector Gulch.  This had some very fun rocks for the Jeep, but the S-10 was a little more challenged with less ground clearance and a longer wheelbase.  We'd been told we wouldn't get through all the way, so we decided to turn back when we got to a place that seemed a little too likely to bite the S-10s rockers.



And that concludes that trip.  Thanks for reading and watching!

Day 1 was a dawdle.  But Day 2's video leaves the audience hanging!  So, did you get over the ledge/rock at about 50 seconds?  And did the S10 get over the drop off at 3 - 4 minutes????  Man, that was some serious stuff, more than I'd want to do.

Day 3 was a bit less dramatic and looks like something BB might could do, although it was pretty narrow.  Your Jeep made it look fairly easy and the S10 took it in stride.

Day 4 was gnarly.  Man, at 3:48 I could see that jack starting to slip and I winced!  But that was after I'd laughed 'cause it was quite reminiscent of our trip to Ouray - having to pull it to the side and to the front.  Thank goodness for two winches and the clearance to use them.  But the poison ivy worried me.  No one got it?  Wow!

And Day 5 was way beyond me!  Man, that was rough stuff.  And tight, close.  You can tell how steep it was with how your engine was grunting.  And boy, was there some banging going on.    I think I'd have turned around before you did.  But the S10 did pretty well.  I'm still amazed.

Thanks for sharing.  So, is this the last trip in the Jeep?  I can see that the boys were at an age where they were ready to shoot up, so space must have been getting tight.

Gary Lewis wrote

Day 1 was a dawdle.  But Day 2's video leaves the audience hanging!  So, did you get over the ledge/rock at about 50 seconds?  And did the S10 get over the drop off at 3 - 4 minutes????  Man, that was some serious stuff, more than I'd want to do.

To show how easy day 1 in the Badlands was, the time the S-10 couldn't make it up the hill out of the dry creek was the first time he shifted into 4WD.

And no on both counts on day 2.  I had no intention of getting over that ledge.  We were just meandering around and found our path blocked.  I just decided to see how far up I could get.  That was it, I then backed off.

And the S-10 couldn't get over that berm either.  You saw that my Jeep hung up there briefly too.  There was no way the S-10s breakover angle was going to let that work.

Although overall I wouldn't say the day was that serious.  My rock pile was just playing, and the S-10s berm was sand.  We could've pulled him over with my Jeep and likely would've done no damage.  But we weren't really trying to get anywhere, so he backed off and we found a different place to be lost, er, I mean explore.

Gary Lewis wrote

Day 3 was a bit less dramatic and looks like something BB might could do, although it was pretty narrow.  Your Jeep made it look fairly easy and the S10 took it in stride.

Day 3 (at least this part) was actually a lot more serious than day 2.  That rocky hill was pretty steep, and things were a little wet and slippery even before the rain started up again.  We had a lot better chance of doing some sort of damage there than we did on day 2.  But yes, the vehicles (and drivers) were up to it.

Gary Lewis wrote

Day 4 was gnarly.  Man, at 3:48 I could see that jack starting to slip and I winced!  But that was after I'd laughed 'cause it was quite reminiscent of our trip to Ouray - having to pull it to the side and to the front.  Thank goodness for two winches and the clearance to use them.  But the poison ivy worried me.  No one got it?  Wow!

Yeah, that was one of the spookier times I've had 'wheeling.  When I slid off the road it felt awfully close to rolling.  When it stopped moving I sat there a few seconds, then had everyone get out (on the low side, which never feels good!) while I held the brakes.  After everyone was clear I gingerly got out and could assess it a little better.  That's when I saw that I could back up and get it into a better position, but unfortunately couldn't actually drive back on the road.

As to slipping off the jack, that was intentional (but still not without risk).  I needed to move the back end sideways, up the hill.  That was the best way I could see to do it.  But you'll notice that my hand was almost never off the jack.  That's not because I thought I could hold it up, but that way, even if I was looking somewhere else, I would know right away if things were moving.  And it was pretty clear which way they would be moving.  (I guess my hand was off the jack at 3:48, but I was watching it.  And after that I put Dean on the come-along so I could stay with the jack.)

Still, did I say that was one of the spookier times I've had 'wheeling?

And as to the poison ivy, we pointed it out to my sons (who, fortunately, hadn't got into any of it before I was able to get out).  And my 5 year old became the instant expert!  They mostly stayed in one place while we were stuck there, but he was looking for poison ivy and pointing it out to us all for the rest of the trip!

Gary Lewis wrote

And Day 5 was way beyond me!  Man, that was rough stuff.  And tight, close.  You can tell how steep it was with how your engine was grunting.  And boy, was there some banging going on.    I think I'd have turned around before you did.  But the S10 did pretty well.  I'm still amazed.

That trail would've been a lot tougher for me a few years earlier, but by this time I was figuring it out.  And the Jeep was set up pretty well for it.  We maybe should've turned the S-10 around earlier, but I was letting him decide how much he wanted to risk his sheetmetal!  It actually did very well, but clearance was a big factor for him (and hardly was at all for me).  Big Blue might actually be better on that trail than the S-10, because it sits up higher.  But there are some pretty tight turns around some of the rocks, so it certainly wouldn't be a cake walk.  And feel free to turn around whenever you want to!

Gary Lewis wrote

Thanks for sharing.  So, is this the last trip in the Jeep?  I can see that the boys were at an age where they were ready to shoot up, so space must have been getting tight.

Not the last trip for the Jeep yet, just the trip that showed we needed something bigger pretty soon.  I bought the Bronco the next year, intending to keep the Jeep.  But I ended up having to sell the Jeep in 2006 (it was taking up too much space, time and money for me to finish the Bronco).  So we took a few more trips in it as the Bronco was slowly moving toward being trail-capable.

And spoiler alert, Before the next Jeep trip I redid the rear bumper and added a Rubicon rack.  That let us move lunch out of the Jeep which gave a little more room as the boys kept growing.

Now in 2003 I had the Bronco, but it was no where near ready for a trip.  So we took the Jeep back out to the Black Hills.  This was again just my family (my boys were now 9 and 7).  My skill level was slowly starting to progress, so we were on a little harder trails a little more of the time.

I now had 33/12.50-15C tires in place of the 235/85-16E that I'd had up to this point.  Still BFG Mud-Terrains, but a little taller, a lot wider and a lot softer.  They were a big improvement in ride quality on the trail!

And as I mentioned above, in an effort to make the small Jeep still work with 4 people I had built a new rear bumper and tire carrier with a Rubicon rack.  That gave us a place to put lunch so everyone's feet could be on the floor!

We started on Prospector Gulch, where we finished the last trip.  Without the S-10 we made it in quite a bit farther, but got to the top of a fairly steep dirt and grass hill.  It was pretty wet and slippery, and with no help and no winch I decided to turn around rather than going down it and possibly getting stuck.

And at the end of this video I included a short clip showing the "train" ride with Yogi Bear that my kids loved in the campground.  It also shows our camping setup at that time.



The only other video-worthy trail of this trip was back on the Calamity Canyon trail system.  We meandered around, figuring out the trails a little more.  But only got video on one short section.



That's it from this trip.  Thanks for reading and watching!

The tires don't seem to have slowed you down or hindered the climbing ability any.  If anything the climbing ability may have been better.  

Both days look pretty difficult.  Very steep and narrow with tight turns.  And some mud.  Your skills have certainly progressed over these videos.  

And the boys certainly seem to like it.  Are they into 'wheeling themselves?  How old are they now?