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New dilemma!

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Cbarnes

New dilemma!

Ok guys,

Got my new PMGR starter put on. While I was at it I decided to put all new battery cables on also. I wired the new starter as y’all described. When I connected the negative battery cable, I heard a pump start running???? Key was off, fuel tank selector was on the front tank, everything just as it was prior to installing the new starter. I need to know where to start looking. I have never heard either of the intank pumps run before today.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Two thoughts. First, any chance the key was left on?

Second, there should be a blue fuse link (T) on the I terminal of your starter relay. It feeds the fuel pump circuit. Pull it off and see if that makes the pump quit.

If so, and it should, that means your I terminal is hot at all times, and it is only supposed to be hot when cranking.

Two thoughts there. First, some starters have a jumper on them from the large terminal to the small terminal. If yours had that it needs to be removed. (But if it was there the starter should have spun when the power hit it.)

Second, is there a chance your starter relay is mounted upside down, with the small terminals up? That would mean the terminal nearest the battery is probably wired hot at all times, which also lights up the I terminal.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Thanks Gary,

Pulled the fusible link off of I terminal, pump shut down. There isn’t a jumper on the starter, it came from D & B. I wired it up exactly as shown in the diagram you showed, and it didn’t spin when the ground was hooked up.

Does that mean that my solenoid is bad?

Thanks,
Carl

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

You didn't answer the question about the relay being mounted the wrong way 'round. I'm asking because the I terminal is electrically connected to the terminal that is typically connected to the starter. So if you have the relay oriented differently then you might have connected to the starter's terminal instead of the battery's terminal.

Does that make sense?

And if it is oriented normally then I think there is another problem besides the relay being bad. It was working correctly before you re-wired - right?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Sorry about that, I don’t think it is mounted wrong, but, I guess it could be. Here is a pic of it.

And yes, I say it was working before the rewire, but, I never heard either fuel pump run prior to today.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Here's your picture rotated. And from what I can tell the relay is oriented normally. But do you have the battery cable, and the one to the starter, on the front terminal? And the smaller wire to the starter on the rear terminal?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Yes sir, as the picture sits the battery cable, and the cable to the starter are on the large post on the left. The new signal wire (10 gauge) is mounted on the large post on the right.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

That's really strange. Somehow your I terminal is getting power from the main battery terminal w/o the relay being pulled in.

Let's try something. Move the big wire to the starter onto the big output terminal along with the signal wire to the starter. Basically you are going back to the original wiring but adding the signal wire. It should work just fine, and if there is any feedback from the starter on the signal wire it'll prevent that from pulling in the pump. And, speaking of the pump, put the blue wire back on the I terminal for the test.

In this configuration you are still getting the extra power of the PMGR starter, but you will still be using the heavy duty starter relay.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Will do tomorrow. I checked it with the key on/off, even taken out. Pump still runs. Weirder yet is tank selector switch is on front tank, but nothing changes when you switch it to the rear. And it is just the rear tank pump that is running as best I can tell.

Pulled the fusible link off of the I terminal and checked the starter, works great.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Okay Gary,

I don’t understand, but I did as you suggested and put the big starter wire back to the post it was originally on. The fuel pump did not come on and run. The truck started and ran just fine.

Carl

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

There's something on that starter that is feeding power from the large wire into the trigger wire. So with the large wire on the always-hot terminal you then have power at all times on the large starter terminal. And since that terminal is tied to the I terminal, the pump comes on.

If you need I can draw that up.

To prove it, take the trigger wire off the big terminal, making sure to insulate it, and the truck should still start and run. There's a jumper somewhere between the power and trigger wire on the starter.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

I went and pulled the starter back off, This is what it looks like.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

I don't see a connection, but there must be one or it wouldn't act that way. Put it back on but w/o the trigger wire and I'll bet it still works.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Reinstalled the starter, left the trigger off of the solenoid on the fender, got a click when trying to start but no starter engage. Hooked the trigger back up on the solenoid, fired right up, but the starter doesn’t disengage instantly.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Yes, that's what happens with both connected to the same terminal as the back emf holds the starter in. How bad is it?

I'm surprised that you got a click. Guess there isn't a solid connection, but something causes the pump to come in.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

It’s not horrible, maybe 3-5 seconds, sounds bad is all. I may get a new solenoid and try it, just for grins.

I did disconnect the trigger wire, and then used my multi-meter to see if there was any voltage back feeding through the trigger wire. Did it with the key off, none, then with the key on, still nothing.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

I'm at a loss. The findings are very confusing. If there's no feedback from the starter it suggests the starter relay is bad. But it doesn't really act that way since everything worked before you replaced the starter.

So maybe replacing the relay will help?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

mat in tn

Re: New dilemma!

how "compatible" is the replacement starter? different opinions are expressed here often.

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Matt - It appears to be mechanically compatible as it starts the truck and apparently doesn't grind.

Chris - Let's go back to the picture. Why are there three connections? And are you using the right two?

I ask because I'm not familiar with starters with three connections. And this one does have a jumper, but it is wrapped back on itself - under a terminal that isn't being used. What is that terminal for?

I'm guessing that you have one terminal that is ahead of the starters solenoid, one that is after the starter's solenoid, and one that triggers the starter's solenoid. If that is the case then you are probably wired correctly as if you put power to the one after the solenoid the starter would run.

But maybe you can see markings?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Gary,

This is the starter that I used.

https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/ford-mini-starter-truck-van-mercury-460-engine-3226-sfd0030.html

Carl

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4