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New dilemma!

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Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Well, comparing your pic to the one of that starter from the DB site it looks like you are wired correctly. The terminal at about 7:00 is the pull-in for the solenoid. The one at 12:00 is the input to the solenoid, and the one at 6:00 is the output to the starter.

So I'm bumfuzzled. I'm going to tag Bill to see if he has any suggestions.

Bill - When this starter is wired the normal PMGR way, as soon as power is applied the fuel pump comes on. Pull the blue fuse link from the I terminal and it stops. Put the large starter wire on the output of the starter relay, along with the trigger wire, and it works correctly - save for the run-on of the starter after releasing the key, which is caused by the starter working as a generator.

And, when he tests with the DVM he finds no connection between the hot terminal and the pull-in terminal on the starter. I'm lost.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

85lebaront2

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Ok, first things first, picture shows the old style Ford starter relay, Darth had and still does have the newer flat style relay. On the relay on your truck, the two small terminals, are they labeled? They should have S and I on them. The reason I ask, AMC used a similar relay, but the two small terminals were 1 & 2 in I remember correctly. They are the two ends of the coil as AMC was using Chrysler Torqueflite transmissions that have a single contact for the starter relay as a center pin. This grounds the relay allowing the starter to operate.

The other item, I am using a Precision Certi-Pro starter on Darth (second one first finally died about a year ago), I have no idea where the DB is made, but 3226 is the correct number for the automatic transmission one (3225 is for manual transmissions).

I would start with a correct starter relay as I feel it is probably the wrong one or is shorted internally.

Here is the way Darth's looks (battery cables have been changed to the actual later style since that picture was taken).

The small copper colored stud behind the molded cable connection is the I terminal and isn't used with EFI.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Thanks, Bill!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Thanks Bill,

Yes the small terminals are labeled “S” and “I”

This is a pic of the end of the box that the starter came in.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

85lebaront2

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

Exactly what I suspected "Made in China". Can I get you to try some tests, first do you have a multimeter or maybe a test light? If so, then first, starter disconnected from the battery feed, wrap the starter end in a shop rag or similar so it can't short if you took it loose there.

Key on, jump the S to battery, relay should make a solid "clunk" and I terminal and starter terminal should be live with battery voltage. Remove the jumper, if the starter and I terminals do not immediately loose power, go get a new relay as you have found the problem.

If this test passes, you now need either a powered test light or multimeter. Using the light or meter, measure the resistance from I to the starter stud on the relay, it should be an open circuit as they are two separate contacts internally.

The next one is more fun, take the positive cable off the battery, measure resistance across the relay main studs and to I. Using a jumper, activate the relay without the battery positive connected to it and again measure the resistance across and to I, it should be near 0 ohms. Leaving the meter connected, remove power from the S terminal and see again, if the relay "hangs" engaged.

This is your homework assignment for tonight.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Hopefully it will warm up enough today to get these tests conducted.

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

Machspeed

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

First class, Bill!

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Did the tests, or at least the first one. It indicated that I needed a new solenoid. Picked a new style up this morning from NAPA. Got home, put it on, and viola!!! No pumps running. Started right up with no starter overrun. I am a happy camper. Thanks so much Bill!

New tank, fuel pump/fuel level sensor came in, so now to get started changing it out.

Thanks again guys,
Carl

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

grumpin

Re: New dilemma!

Sweet!

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Cbarnes

Good job!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

FuzzFace2

Re: New dilemma!

In reply to this post by Cbarnes

Cbarnes wrote

Did the tests, or at least the first one. It indicated that I needed a new solenoid. Picked a new style up this morning from NAPA. Got home, put it on, and viola!!! No pumps running. Started right up with no starter overrun. I am a happy camper. Thanks so much Bill!

New tank, fuel pump/fuel level sensor came in, so now to get started changing it out.

Thanks again guys,
Carl

Good to hear its fixed.
I hope you went with top of the line NAPA solenoid as they carry 2 levels of parts.
When I replaced mine I went TOL and no issues so far.
Dave ----

Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100

85lebaront2

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Cbarnes

You are welcome sir! I had this system on my truck until I converted to EFI, so got quite familiar with it.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Machspeed

Thank you sir! Maybe we need to add this, maybe with some decent pictures to the 460 fuel systems section.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

85lebaront2 wrote

Thank you sir! Maybe we need to add thia, maybe with some decent pictures to the 460 fuel systems section.

Tell me more about what to document?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

In reply to this post by FuzzFace2

Dave,

How do you tell which NAPA parts are TOL? Price?

Thanks,
Carl

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4

85lebaront2

Re: New dilemma!

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

What I had given him for testing to zero in on the problem he was having with the hot fuel handling package. This is the one that started with the blue fusible link hooked to the battery side of the starter relay.

Copy of what I gave him for tests to determine cause:

"Exactly what I suspected "Made in China". Can I get you to try some tests, first do you have a multimeter or maybe a test light? If so, then first, starter disconnected from the battery feed, wrap the starter end in a shop rag or similar so it can't short if you took it loose there.

Key on, jump the S to battery, relay should make a solid "clunk" and I terminal and starter terminal should be live with battery voltage. Remove the jumper, if the starter and I terminals do not immediately loose power, go get a new relay as you have found the problem.

If this test passes, you now need either a powered test light or multimeter. Using the light or meter, measure the resistance from I to the starter stud on the relay, it should be an open circuit as they are two separate contacts internally.

The next one is more fun, take the positive cable off the battery, measure resistance across the relay main studs and to I. Using a jumper, activate the relay without the battery positive connected to it and again measure the resistance across and to I, it should be near 0 ohms. Leaving the meter connected, remove power from the S terminal and see again, if the relay "hangs" engaged.

This is your homework assignment for tonight."

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

FuzzFace2

Re: New dilemma!

In reply to this post by Cbarnes

Cbarnes wrote

Dave,

How do you tell which NAPA parts are TOL? Price?

Thanks,
Carl

Yes and most of the time you have to ask because EVERYONE wants the cheap one so they just get that part number when looking up and either pull it off the shelf or order it and not ask you what one you want.
I knew of the solenoid issues, junk ones right out of the box, so I went in asking for the TOL part and it was more money but you get what you pay for right?

I have been dealing with O'Reily lately, less than 1/4 mile (I can walk there if I have to) and they also have different level of parts.
Maybe because I am in there a lot for different things but they show me the different level of parts and let me pick what one I want.
Again I think any of the parts stores you have to ask because they know most want a cheap part and that is what they go for.
Dave ----

Cbarnes

Re: New dilemma!

Makes sense,

Thanks,
Carl

1984 F-250, XLT, SuperCab, 460, C-6, 4X4