Miss fire help

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Miss fire help

TheScatch
This post was updated on .
OK, fun story my sister in law drives a 99 CR-V that is misfiring on 3 of 4 cylinders. I think she has a valve issue and she is kinda broke. So that prompted me with an idea. If I can find a running parts vehicle, she can drive my car and I can drive the parts vehicle.

I found a 1995 E150 with 300 six and automatic transmission. Trying to figure which transmission it is but it's "brand new" the whole van is up for $1000 which means I can get a transmission and whole bunch of parts for $1000. Of course this is an EFI engine.

Here is what the gentleman has said:

"new (not rebuilt) transmission, starter, distributor, engine computer, recent tires, and random miss-fire"

How would I troubleshoot that misfire? If I can get this van running smooth this is a great solution buying her time and me parts that could be used in the truck.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

Gary Lewis
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That WOULD be a good solution!

I think a '95 will have an E4OD, but it might also be a 4R100 as some place in there was the cutover.  But the transmissions are almost identical, with the 4R being a bit better due to some improvements.

Coupling either of those transmissions to your 300 up front and 3.00 out back will give you really tall gearing once it drops into OD.  But you'll either have to EFI your current engine or swap the "new" engine in, or do the standalone controller bit we discussed.

As for troubleshooting the miss, the computer may be recording it.  Do you have a scan ....  Oh wait!  '95 might still be EEC-IV and not V.  If IV then it probably won't be OBD-II, although some say that a few IV's had it, although it might not be fully functional.  96 was when OBD-II was mandated, but some changed earlier.  You'll have to find out what it is.

If it is OBD-II the computer should be storing codes if it is detecting the misfire.  Not sure what EEC-IV detects.  If it isn't detecting it then it may just be a bad plug or plug wire.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
New information, I asked him if the misfire happened before or after the the work was done, the "misfire" happened after the new transmission went in. The new dist etc I guess was an attempt to figure out the misfire. I have not been to see it BUT I do have a OBD-I reader.

"The same time as the new transmission went in. Ford place did the rest trying to fix it. Let me know. "

As far as a swap in it definitely gives me options. I could do the controller and use my truck as is, but I was planning on adding a FiTech EFI system with DS-II at some point. May be easier to stick to a factory set up, dunno. The FiTech allows me other options as well for performance parts. I remember reading something about people like EFI heads or manifolds and putting them on their older 300 sixes.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
I have a friend with a Lincoln that's been sitting for God knows how long still trying to get me to buy it for the AOD. It has a 5.0,l and 8.8 rear. I think the transmissions in the cars had different tail housings anyway. And I am not sure I'm up for rebuilding an AOD. $200 is cheap but I'd have to pull it, borrow a trailer to scrap the Lincoln then take the transmission to a shop for rebuild. $1000 for an EOD ready to go and possibly a second engine seems like a better deal... Heck maybe I put the EFI engine in my truck and then take the original 300 and trailer it make it into a generator lol.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

Gary Lewis
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I think the van is a better option than the Lincoln.  More parts that fit.

But if the van is EEC-IV then that limits what you can do later because it is speed density, meaning it thinks it knows how much air the engine is ingesting based on the RPM and the density of the air.  But if you change much, like the cam, then the 'puter will be wrong in its assumptions.  And I don't know how far you can push it w/o having a problem.  But, it would already come with the better manifolds, right?  Maybe that's enough?

And, it would be multi-port injection.  Is the Fitech MPI or throttle body?

However, it is possible the van is really EEC-V, which would be the best of all worlds.

Check it out!
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Miss fire help

85lebaront2
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EEC-V started in part with the 1994.5 Powerstroke, light duty trucks E/F150 and some 250s under 8500 GVW all went to EEC-V in 1996, 1995 will still be EEC-IV, but have the CCD TFI system.

Transmissions, a very few 300s were built early in the AOD's run with them, just like they came with C4s until Ford figured out the torque of a 300 coupled with what a lot of people bought them for, the heavier transmissions were needed, so C6 and later E4ODs were put behind them. The 4R100, is an improved E4OD and was introduced mid 1998 on the 5.4L new body F250s which were a slightly beefed up F150 with 7 bolt rims and a number of other oddities. This was done because the Powerstroke would not fit under the hood of the new body (sort of like the Bullnose not being available with the 460 at first).
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
Owner said it had an OD button on the column so I'm pretty sure he has a brand new E4OD in it.

Gary the FiTech sits on the manifold where the carb is and has multiple ports in the unit, not sure If this answers the question. sounds like the best bet may be the stock EFI set up vs aftermarket, heck a aftermarket EFI system would cost as much as the whole price of this van.

Should be a pretty straight forward swap or is there a bunch of electrical considerations.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
From my brief research looks like the EFI version of the 300 is not efficient and has a bit more performance, though I have hear horror stories about mpgs falling through the floor as well probably from something causing the computer to do something funky.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

Gary Lewis
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If the Fitech sits where a carb goes then it is "throttle body".  That means the fuel has to find its way down the loooooong manifold branches and can fall out of suspension.  Instead port-injection like the factory did is a better solution.  However, I don't know about the horror stories.  I've not heard them, but then I've not been listening for them either.

And it should be pretty straightforward to swap engines and gain the EFI.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
Gary Lewis wrote
If the Fitech sits where a carb goes then it is "throttle body".  That means the fuel has to find its way down the loooooong manifold branches and can fall out of suspension.  Instead port-injection like the factory did is a better solution.  However, I don't know about the horror stories.  I've not heard them, but then I've not been listening for them either.

And it should be pretty straightforward to swap engines and gain the EFI.
 

This is becoming a better solution every minute. I'm setting up a time to see the owner.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
Also bonus, if I'm lucky it will have the 130amp 3g alternator on it.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

Gary Lewis
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Yes, it should.  And the charge cable.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Miss fire help

ArdWrknTrk
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In reply to this post by TheScatch
Trucks have pretty basic electrical needs.
No heated power seats and stuff like that in an early '90's E-series straight six van.
More than likely the four hole 95A 3G.
But you can always upgrade down the road, and trade it in as core. (95% wouldn't look twice, or even know)
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
ArdWrknTrk wrote
Trucks have pretty basic electrical needs.
No heated power seats and stuff like that in an early '90's E-series straight six van.
More than likely the four hole 95A 3G.
But you can always upgrade down the road, and trade it in as core. (95% wouldn't look twice, or even know)

With LED everything you could probably run most anything with that 95amp.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

ArdWrknTrk
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Perhaps...
But we're talking early '90's, and 5 way adjusting heated seats like you would find in a Lincoln, then add the draw of one of the 4,000 CFM fans needed to pull air through the radiator, front (and rear!) climate control blowers, etc..
Resistance heaters and motors don't come without a cost.
Add headlights and a rear window defroster in the winter months, when you're whole commute is in the dark -both ways- and you can envision the need for the larger output alternator.

I just like the fact that my 130 can put out more amps at fast idle than my 65A 2G firestarter could at redline.
And I do have the white LRC regulator.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
ArdWrknTrk wrote
Perhaps...
But we're talking early '90's, and 5 way adjusting heated seats like you would find in a Lincoln, then add the draw of one of the 4,000 CFM fans needed to pull air through the radiator, front (and rear!) climate control blowers, etc..
Resistance heaters and motors don't come without a cost.
Add headlights and a rear window defroster in the winter months, when you're whole commute is in the dark -both ways- and you can envision the need for the larger output alternator.

I just like the fact that my 130 can put out more amps at fast idle than my 65A 2G fire starter could at redline.
And I do have the white LRC regulator.
Good points, even if it only has the 95, upgrading to a 130 shouldn't be hard at that point, should be serpentine belt so no added belts to prevent slipping, its already 3g so should be no wire mods (2g-3g) etc if the gauge is good, just a bump up in the maxi fuse.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
I guess the "horror" stories are guys who had carbed 300's getting decent MPGs then going over to EFI drop down into the low teens.

Seems to be a handful of discussions about that around the inter-webs.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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Re: Miss fire help

Gary Lewis
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You mentioned wiring or electrical issues in doing the swap, and I probably made it sound easy.  And it really will be.  But, what you'll be doing is something I'm getting ready to do, and Bill's already done.

Here are a couple of things to think about.  First is the location of the ECU.  In the van it is probably where it is in the later pickups - in the kick panel area outboard of the emergency brake pedal.  Steve83 had some info on how he did it, and Bill has done it as well.  But it takes a bit of ingenuity as there apparently isn't initially room for the ECU w/o making some changes.

Second, you'll be marrying two very different electrical strategies and you'll have to decide how you want to do that.  Your pickup has fusible links running from the starter relay back to the ignition switch or fuse block.  But the van probably has a power distribution box on the driver's fender with fuses and relays in it, as well as a smaller fuse block in the cab.

I think you'll need the PDB as some of those fuses and relays are used in the EEC system.  So the question becomes how to marry the two electrical systems.  My plan is to bring the long power feeds to the ignition switch and fuse block from the starter relay to the PDB, which will be much closer.  And I plan to use some of the fuses in the PDB to replace the fusible links.  But I've not done it yet, so can't tell you how hard nor effective it'll be.

However, you are the electrical guru, so how would you do it?  And, by the way, I may have the wiring schematics for you in my '96 EVTM - I'll look in a bit.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Miss fire help

85lebaront2
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Ok, quick information on E series vans. EEC may be under the inside HVAC casing on the passenger side, PDC may be underhood, driver's side with a relay bank separate from it. Engine harness will connect at the top of the opening through the firewall to the inside, it will be a 42 way square bolt together unit and will have all the engine wiring except the alternator. Transmission will probably be another 16 way snap together connector near the 42 way one.

We dismantled a 1995 E150 conversion van with a very tired 302, worst engine choice possible for the weight.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Miss fire help

TheScatch
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
You mentioned wiring or electrical issues in doing the swap, and I probably made it sound easy.  And it really will be.  But, what you'll be doing is something I'm getting ready to do, and Bill's already done.

Here are a couple of things to think about.  First is the location of the ECU.  In the van it is probably where it is in the later pickups - in the kick panel area outboard of the emergency brake pedal.  Steve83 had some info on how he did it, and Bill has done it as well.  But it takes a bit of ingenuity as there apparently isn't initially room for the ECU w/o making some changes.

Second, you'll be marrying two very different electrical strategies and you'll have to decide how you want to do that.  Your pickup has fusible links running from the starter relay back to the ignition switch or fuse block.  But the van probably has a power distribution box on the driver's fender with fuses and relays in it, as well as a smaller fuse block in the cab.

I think you'll need the PDB as some of those fuses and relays are used in the EEC system.  So the question becomes how to marry the two electrical systems.  My plan is to bring the long power feeds to the ignition switch and fuse block from the starter relay to the PDB, which will be much closer.  And I plan to use some of the fuses in the PDB to replace the fusible links.  But I've not done it yet, so can't tell you how hard nor effective it'll be.

However, you are the electrical guru, so how would you do it?  And, by the way, I may have the wiring schematics for you in my '96 EVTM - I'll look in a bit.

I'm going to have to look at schematics for both the van and the truck to give a solid answer on that one, but my intuition is telling me to convert to run fuse blocks/ the PDB. Will be a cleaner installation, easier to work with and trouble shoot in the long run as it puts everything in one convenient spot. I'm sure I can figure out a location or custom box for the ECU. I dont't know how big or small it is but when we can cross that bridge when we get there. I am not using the center dash speaker...maybe that will be a suitable location IDK.

Back on the "random miss fire" issue with the van. The owner says it cropped up after they did a new transmission. They have also replaced the starter, distributor, and ECU after the fact. I'm curious if it is not a misfire, but something that feels like a miss fire from the transmission side, like the torque converter slipping or something in the transmission causing the engine to get a sudden load that feels like a misfire. My trouble shooting side always defaults to the last thing someone messed with prior to the issue arising.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
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