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Intermittent no crank issue

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Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

FuzzFace2 wrote

This noise does it sound like the starter is spinning or the relay buzzing?
Dave ----

Neither...the relay isn't making any unusual noise, and the starter isn't spinning; it's fully engaging, it just isn't putting out enough torque to spin the engine. Hence 'RRRrrr'.

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

Battery is good.
Cables are new.

Is the timing retard function working?

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Battery is good.
Cables are new.

Is the timing retard function working?

In the Duraspark module? I don't know (but I assume it is)...but that wouldn't come into play until the engine was rotating and the plugs were firing, would it?

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

That would come into play when you applied power to the start circuit.

The engine is not turning when there is power applied to the white module wire, and the red/blue trigger of the relay. (Electrons are FAST!!!!)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

In reply to this post by FuzzFace2

Mornin' Dave!

I'm up and on my way into the shop to glue up some more doors.

(You can never have enough clamps)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

In reply to this post by Dorsai

As I sit here in the parking lot waiting for a friend to give me a ride home, I can confirm that the problem is NOT the starter relay.

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

Well that sucks.

Have you tried tapping on the starter?

New ground goes to starter bolt, right?
And (I expect) the starter cable itself is good.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Well that sucks.

Have you tried tapping on the starter?

New ground goes to starter bolt, right?
And (I expect) the starter cable itself is good.

No, I declined the opportunity to crawl around under the truck in the parking lot of the grocery store. I'd already wasted enough time swapping out the relay (I was on the way back from NAPA with the new relay, and foolishly decided to stop for lunch), and I needed to get back home to work. Plus, I didn't want to be filthy when I got in my friend's car.

I'll go back over this evening after it's had time to cool down for a while, and see if that helps. If not I'll get under there and bang on the starter for a bit...and if *that* doesn't help I suppose I'll do a parking lot starter swap. Good times!

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

Bring a pipe, or a wrecking bar, or something.....

Hit it from the top.
You have nothing to lose.

No need to be stuck and undignified.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

Wait, you installed the relay in the parking lot?

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Sure, why not?

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

Dorsai wrote

Sure, why not?

Ha ha

That is my handle on most forums unrelated to trucks.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

In reply to this post by Dorsai

How well is the fender grounded?

-the relay grounds through its ears and the mounting screws-

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Bring a pipe, or a wrecking bar, or something.....

Hit it from the top.
You have nothing to lose.

No need to be stuck and undignified.

Yup. Unfortunately, when it happened I had nothing that would reach far enough down to whack the starter...

...until I was just now coming back from NAPA (for the second time today and probably fifth time this month - the counter girl likely thinks I have a crush on her) with the new starter, and remembered that looong jack handle these trucks are equipped with. So I swung by the store where the truck was, used the jack handle to beat the starter like a rented stepchild, et voila:

The truck fired right up and is now safely ensconced in my garage, awaiting a dignified starter swap tomorrow.

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

The counter girl likely was thinking, 'My eyes are up here'

Glad you got it started.

Ever considered a PMGR?
Seems a popular topic of late.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

In reply to this post by Dorsai

Yippee! Now you won't get stuck in banjo country.

I second the PMGR suggestion.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Gary Lewis wrote

Yippee! Now you won't get stuck in banjo country.

Well...I won't get stuck because of a bad starter at least. One potential problem down, 999 to go...

I second the PMGR suggestion.

OK...why? I don't know anything about PMGR starters, I thought their big appeal was a smaller diameter for tight installations?

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

Gary Lewis

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

More cranking power with less current. The engine spins easier/faster and the solenoid and battery will thank you.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dorsai

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Hard to argue with that!

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA

Gary Lewis

Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Administrator

Back to the discussion of relays, the original starter required a big relay on the fender, which is known to fail. But the PMGR starters can get by with the little Bosch relays. However, you can leave the big relay on the fender and it'll last forever with the small amount of current being pulled.

That indicates how much less current is being pulled from the battery. IIRC, Jim said 40 amps for the PMGR and Bill said 200 amps for the original starter. So the battery has to supply far less to turn the engine.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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