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Gary Lewis

Help On 3G Page

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I need a bit of help on the 3G page: Documentation/Electrical/3G. Basically what I'm trying to do is understand how people want the information presented to them. To me the best option is for me to show a before and an after view. But I need your feedback.

Let's take Ty's example of a 1G with ammeter but w/o converting the ammeter to a voltmeter. And, he cut out the shunt. Here's a before and an after. Does this work?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Tyler

Re: Help On 3G Page

It certainly makes sense to me now that I've completed the install after making some mistakes. Not extremely complicated. However, perhaps leave the ammeter in the drawing and show the leads dead-ended?

1985 F150 4x4 SB 300 I6: Comp 268 cam, '68 240 head, Offy DP, FI manifolds, Holley Sniper 2300, DUI street/strip distributor, BW T-18, Tuff Country 4" suspension lift, Yukon Offroad hubs + front and rear Duragrip LSD 3.73 ratio, 33-12.5/15s

Gear Vendors overdrive unit on order.

Oklahoma boy livin in Washington State. Retired submarine MMNCM (Nuclear Machinist's Mate, Master Chief)

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I doubt the alternator output would be bk/or, but maybe (if someone could find that cable)

I also think all new wires need to be highlighted to stand out.

Like 37 from c610 to the fuselink (J) -which you failed to include-
*** edit, I keep forgetting about L & M.... carry on *******

And 38, on both sides of the Megafuse, but which shouldn't have any fuselink at the fender relay.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by Tyler

The problem I have is that if I leave the ammeter in then do I leave the shunt in? And if the shunt is in then where does the long yellow line go?

How about an intermediate step then, one between the original and the final, showing what is deleted? Like this. (Note that I didn't cross out the W/Bk wire, which probably should be in the final version.)

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

Just unplug 610 in the diagram.

Take the lt gr/rd coming in from the right side of the page and put 'Sxxx' to the regulator plug.
Put a new wire (in place of shunt 38) from C610 (where it splits to the two fusible links) straight left to the hot lug of the starter relay.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Jim - Good call on the wire color for the output wire. And, I like highlighting the new wires.

But on the fuse links, I'm lost. We aren't eliminating any of them as all of that part of the original wiring stays. Right?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Just unplug 610 in the diagram.

Take the lt gr/rd coming in from the right side of the page and put 'Sxxx' to the regulator plug.
Put a new wire (in place of 38) from C610 (where it splits to the two fusible links) straight left to the hot lug of the starter relay.

Ok, I understand taking 610 apart and running a new wire. But I don't understand the 'Sxxx' bit. Can you say that differently?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

You're eliminating J!
But you want L&M because they are on the cab side of C610.

I had originally said that the new wire (replacing shunt 38, and the rest of the rats nest from 610) needed to be protected by a fuselink.
Not thinking about L&M protecting the cab....

I made this mistake before, and should have remembered, instead of just focusing on the wires between alternator and fender relay.

I think the 'sense' wire should go to the output stud, as that's about as far as the pigtail will reach.
I understand the Painless kit has an extended wire.
But that allows people to screw up by putting it on the other side of the fuse (just like the 2G screwup)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

Ok, I think we are together. Now, what about Sxxx?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

904 comes in from the right [continued on of 18]
904 needs to come straight across and splice (Sxxx) into the regulator plug of the 3G.

I don't know what to call that splice, so I call it Splice xxx.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

John - This is just a test of how to show things. But we need:

1G without shunt and ammeter

1G without shunt but with voltmeter

1G with shunt and with voltmeter

1G with warning light

2G without shunt and ammeter

2G without shunt but with voltmeter

2G with shunt and with voltmeter

Note that the 2G came out in '86, which was the first year they discontinued the warning light.

Jim - I understand what you are saying. Show the splices rather than just continuing the wires. Got it.

Ok, I'll do some more

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

The problem with taking the shunt out is twofold, (a) the printed circuit on the cluster will not take the current output of the 3G even a 95 amp, it is designed to handle a very small differential between the alternator/battery and the load. (b) the ammeter is also only designed to handle the small differential and without the shunt it will be a moot point what burns up first, the wires to the dash, the plug(s) on the cluster, the printed circuit or the ammeter itself.

Gary, look at your Chrysler electrical, they used a real ammeter, but due to the way it is hooked up it has some interesting behavior. It is great if you understand it shows not into or out of the battery but alternator output.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

Bill - I think you missed something - we are also taking the wiring to the ammeter out. No juice to the ammeter.

All - See what you think of this. I've tried to do some highlighting of the new wires. Also, what do you think of saying the shunt should be replaced with a #6 wire? That may be overkill, but #37 is a 10 gauge wire and #38 is a #12. And the shunt replacement needs to power both of those wires - all everything in the cab.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

Note that the 2G came out in '86, which was the first year they discontinued the warning light.

My '87 had a 2G and a warning light.
(Of course all '87-> trucks had a voltmeter) Even my lowly 'Custom'

Yeah, you can't have a functional stock ammeter and no shunt.
Without a way to provide voltage drop around the meter, it won't read.
And with 100A+ passing through the meter, it is going to melt.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Probably would do it, what size is the wire from the battery to the PDC on BB? I would use that as an idea, but it might be overkill. You are still limited by the inside the cab wiring components, like the ignition switch.

The 1996 uses two 12ga fuse links from the battery into the #37 yellow wire to the PDC. There is another 12ga for the alternator. The ignition switch on the 1996 has two 50 amp fuses and one 20 amp fuse feeding it. The 1985 has everything through the ignition switch on that one fusible link so #6 might be overkill, but better than having something melt underhood.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

The wire from the battery to the PDB on the driver's side is a #4, Bill. And it is intended to carry everything in the cab, which is what the shunt's replacement is to do.

However, that #4 is pretty long, maybe 6'? And the shunt is maybe 1'. So it really won't take a huge wire. But, if someone is running a killer stereo powered out of the cab, and then A/C, and no headlight harness, and no LED bulbs, plus power windows, there could be a lot of current.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

Look at the page from the EVTM.

It doesn't matter how big (or small) you make the shunt's replacement, as long as it's bigger than the fuse links at the right.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

You're still showing the 610 connector, and the shunt replacement spliced in after.

GET RID OF THE ENGINE SIDE OF C610!
Unplug it and throw all that crap out, along with the regulator.

Either make your new wire with a single pin to join 37 at the cab side of 610, or cut the whole connector out of the truck.
It's useless.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Yes and no. The fuse links have high temp insulation, which the shunt's replacement won't have. So that wire shouldn't be operated as close to the limit as the fuse links.

Maybe the wires after the fuse links are the better things to gauge, pun intended, and they are #12 and #10. I just did a cross sectional area calc, and #12 is .0051 sq inches while # 10 is .0082, which gives a total of .0133. And #8 is .0130. Looks like a good fit.

Thoughts?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Help On 3G Page

Administrator

Not "Yes and no"
The fuse links are supposed to be two wire gauge sizes smaller than the wire they protect.

You have 37 & 38. If you look at the stock diagram both are fed from the shunt.

Therefore the shunt is fine (with a stock load)

Using anything bigger, without hacking into the cab harness and eliminating those fuse links, is a waste that gains you nothing.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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