Fuel lines

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Fuel lines

Pebcak
For the past 6 months or so I've had an intermittent problem.  When I get up to 55-65 in the Beast it'll bog down like it has a governor/isn't getting enough fuel.  When I slow down to 45ish it'll be fine until I get up to speed again.  Luckily for me I only do 45ish going to and from work back roads so it hasn't been an emergency.

Here are some point of troubleshooting I've done.

- Doesn't matter which tank is selected.
- Happens in cold or hot weather.
- I've tried different gas stations.
- Checked lines and changed the fuel filter less than a year ago.
- Up until about 55 mph the truck idles and runs fine.

It's totally random when it happens.

I talked with one of my coworkers and he had a 70's model when he was growing up.  He said to go ahead and change my fuel filter again and put a bottle of isopropyl alcohol in each tank to absorb any water.
 With those suggestions, I went under to trace everything down to get parts I noticed a mess underneath.  Now I'm thinking I should run new lines from the tank selector all the way to the engine bay.

With this project I have some other questions.

- Can I just run new (fuel rated) hose all the way from the tank selector into the engine bay and put the fuel filter in the bay?
- I'm not good with hoses so I need to ask if I should go with Steel or can I use fuel rubber hose?
- What diameter should I use for a 351W?  5/16" or 3/8"  I see the part # of 9289 on the IPB but can't find the measurement in the part # area.
- I took a picture of what I think the tank selector is and wanted to make sure that this is correct.  What is all the stuff that the lines "use" to go through on the left side of the photo?



Here's the fuel filter my son replaced about 10 months ago.



I apologize in advance for the multiple questions.  As always, I want to fix this and do it right the first time.  If I can improve or make things easier in the future I will.

Any suggestions or comments (good or bad) are more than welcome.
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

Gary Lewis
Administrator
You can replace all that stuff, but I don't think it will solve the problem.  I say that because I don't see anything wrong with what is there.  (And, by the way, the thing to the left of the pic is probably the original fuel tank selector valve.)

Since it happens on either tank it is something in common with both tanks.  And I can think of a few things it could be:

Float Level: If the float level in the carb is low, you could be running out of fuel in the carb, but have enough flow to the carb.  The Edelbrock Owner's Manual explains how to set the float level.

Vent: The tanks are vented via a small line that tees and then goes to the evap canister under the battery.  If that line is pinched after the tee, or if the evap canister's vent is plugged the tanks can't vent properly and you'll pull a vacuum on the tank and prevent the fuel pump from doing its job.  You could test this theory by loosening the gas cap for a drive.

Fuel Line: Or, it could be that the fuel line going from that valve in the picture, through the fuel filter, and on to the carb is leaking at a joint.  Any looseness in a connection can allow air in and that will kill the pump's suction.

As for replacing the line, yes you can use rubber hose.  Get the stuff that is ethanol-rated.  As for size, I'm not sure.  I thought it was 3/8", but I wouldn't swear to that.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
Awesome ideas Gary!  I'll try the gas cap part out the next time I drive it.  It's going to be parked this next week until I get my allowance and time to work on it.  This weekend is full but next weekend is free for now.

One follow up question.  Is it an issue if I redo all the hose and put the fuel filter up in the engine bay somewhere?  For the ease of R&R?  Or is there a physics/design reason it's on the frame below?
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

Gary Lewis
Administrator
From the factory the filters are always after the fuel pump.  But yours is before.  I've run one before the pump for years on several trucks with no problems, but there are those that say you shouldn't do that for fear of restricting the pump.  So, perhaps that is what is happening, and if you put it in the engine compartment you could put it after the pump.  Maybe that will fix the problem?
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: Fuel lines

ArdWrknTrk
In reply to this post by Pebcak
Adding an 8oz bottle of alcohol to a tank of fuel that already has 12.8oz *per gallon*(10%) is very unlikely to do anything.

Back in the day adding drygas allowed a polar solvent to be miscable in a non-polar solvent, because it will mix with both.

You either have a fuel restriction or an ignition that is breaking down at higher rpms.

Figure a way to determine if your miss is load or rpm dependant.

Drive in a lower gear on flat ground for a few miles.

Drive in a high gear up a long hill.

Do either of these cause it to happen, or be worse?


"It's totally random when it happens"
is not a valid conclusion.
SOMETHING causes it to happen...
Lil' Red
'87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Fuel lines

PetesPonies
Fuel delivery is extremely important with a fuel injected engine. There is no extra fuel ready, like in the bowl of a carburetor. If this only happened after WOT situations, a moment after being in WOT, I could see it being a fuel delivery issue. But there is enough fuel in the bowl to allow you a couple miles in most instances. So if  this happens as soon as you reach over 45mph . .its not delivery, at least not outside the carb. Fuel delivery inside. absolutely. Low level, clogged main jets, etc.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
I never thought of hills while driving.  To clarify, I'm NW of Dallas. No hills for me to drive where I go to and from work.  It's pretty level with fields. 

When it does happen it's when I'm in the 50's trying to get up to anywhere from 55-70 with the two roads I'll attempt to drive on after work or on weekends. 

When I say random I meant that I could be on the same road going 60 one time and the next time; hours, days or weeks later I can't go over 45 without it losing power. 

With the replies that've been posted I'm going to look at the carburetor and see what I can figure out.  


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 06:49 ArdWrknTrk [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Adding an 8oz bottle of alcohol to a tank of fuel that already has 12.8oz *per gallon*(10%) is very unlikely to do anything.

Back in the day adding drygas allowed a polar solvent to be miscable in a non-polar solvent, because it will mix with both.

You either have a fuel restriction or an ignition that is breaking down at higher rpms.

Figure a way to determine if your miss is load or rpm dependant.

Drive in a lower gear on flat ground for a few miles.

Drive in a high gear up a long hill.

Do either of these cause it to happen, or be worse?
"It's totally random when it happens"
is not a valid conclusion.
SOMETHING causes it to happen...
Lil' Red
'87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.



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NAML
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
In reply to this post by PetesPonies
Thanks for the insight! I'm still new to troubleshooting fuel delivery and carburetors. 

I know basics still. Tank, lines, fuel filter and what a carburetor is.  :)

It's hard to find anyone in person that can physically show me things. Guess I need to make sure I make it up to the next Oklahoma meet!! 

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 10:55 PetesPonies [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fuel delivery is extremely important with a fuel injected engine. There is no extra fuel ready, like in the bowl of a carburetor. If this only happened after WOT situations, a moment after being in WOT, I could see it being a fuel delivery issue. But there is enough fuel in the bowl to allow you a couple miles in most instances. So if  this happens as soon as you reach over 45mph . .its not delivery, at least not outside the carb. Fuel delivery inside. absolutely. Low level, clogged main jets, etc.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco




If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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NAML
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

ArdWrknTrk
In reply to this post by Pebcak
I apologize.
Did not realize how flat it is where you are.

That it only happens *sometimes* makes it more challenging to diagnose.
Are you sure it is fuel and not something like a sticking advance plate in the bottom of the distributor?

It would be great if you could make it up to Skiatook for a GTG.
Plenty of projects and knowledge to share at Gary's Garagemahal.
Lil' Red
'87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
Sticking the what, where with who? I'll need to look that up.  Ha!

I'm serious when I say I have no clue. But, I'm willing to learn is the point!

Just please bear with me is all I ask.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 13:02 ArdWrknTrk [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <
ml+s12971n6278h49@n8.nabble.com> wrote:

> I apologize.
> Did not realize how flat it is where you are.
>
> That it only happens *sometimes* makes it more challenging to diagnose.
> Are you sure it is fuel and not something like a sticking advance plate in
> the bottom of the distributor?
>
> It would be great if you could make it up to Skiatook for a GTG.
> Plenty of projects and knowledge to share at Gary's Garagemahal.
> Lil' Red
> '87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an
> Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
> Too much other stuff to mention.
>
>
> ------------------------------
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"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

ArdWrknTrk
If you lift up the distributor cap you will see the rotor.

The rotor should turn a few degrees if you twist it, and it should snap right back when you let it go.
This is the action that allows the timing to advance as the engine rpm's climb.

Sometimes the pivot gets gummed up and it will not advance smoothly, or maybe it will not return.

It you were accelerating through the gears it might not be as noticeable as accelerating slowly past 50.
Or engine vibration at the top of one gear might keep it moving.

This is a stretch,  but simple enough to rule out.
Lil' Red
'87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Fuel lines

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Pebcak
September 15th, 2018.  BE THERE!  (Echoing a popular commercial for many events in the 60's.)

Yes, we could certainly check things out up here.  But, I hope you get it sorted long before then as I'd like to see your truck.

Have you tried flooring it when it starts to labor?  I ask because it is possible for the enrichment needles to get stuck in the down, or lean, position.  I've never seen it, but I've heard/read that it can happen.  And if that happens the engine will be quite lean as you try to accelerate, and might cause it to refuse to go.  But, if you had enough air flow (RPM) then flooring the throttle could cause the secondaries to open and that will cause the mix to go rich enough to cover up the lean primaries.  Just a thought.

And, someone else suggested trying different gears.  So, shift to a lower gear and see if that makes a difference.  That reduces the cylinder pressure and could bypass an ignition problem, like bad wires, plugs, cap, rotor, etc.  So, give that a try as well.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: Fuel lines

PetesPonies
In reply to this post by Pebcak
OK, if that random, then not a fuel level in the bowl issue. It's not changing levels. Ignition problems cn be random, more so. Heat effects them so much.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Just got back online and saw this post Gary.  Finally had some time to catch up a little and read before tomorrow.  

When you ask:  "Have you tried flooring it when it starts to labor?"

Yes I have.  The engine will try to speed up but the engine "bogs down" just like you explain.  It's like that  until I let off totally and go back down to about 45 mph.

Tomorrow I'll be working on this for awhile while the Mrs is out riding horses.  Hence why I'm here making a checklist of things to go over so I don't miss something.
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
In reply to this post by PetesPonies
The only thing I can think of that I haven't changed for spark/ignition are the plug wires.  

New: starter, battery, battery cables, ground wire, solenoid and Motorcraft plugs.  If I've missed something let me know and I'll look as well.
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Go out now and start it up.  With all the lights off do you see a blue glow around any of the plug wires?  Or, worse yet, sparks?

The ignition system can easily cause the problems you are describing.  What happens is that the voltage required to jump across the plug is dependent upon the pressure in the cylinder.  As you start speeding up the pressure goes up and, therefore, the voltage required goes up.  And if the wires or plugs are poor the voltage will find another path to ground instead of jumping across the plug.

One way around that is to run in a lower gear at the same speed.  That drops the pressure in the cylinder, and might allow the engine to rev on up.  But, that approach usually doesn't work for the fuel system as it still takes as much gas to do the work.  So, if shifting down lets you go a bit faster before it "lays down" then it is ignition related.  But, if it doesn't help then it may be fuel.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: Fuel lines

ArdWrknTrk
In reply to this post by Pebcak
 
Pebcak wrote
The only thing I can think of that I haven't changed for spark/ignition are the plug wires.  

New: starter, battery, battery cables, ground wire, solenoid and Motorcraft plugs.  If I've missed something let me know and I'll look as well.
I don't see any mention of distributor, cap, rotor, or coil.

You know, the -ignition system- that those plug wires connect all together.
Lil' Red
'87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
And again I show my lack of thinking. I did replace the rotor and cap. 

I took a picture of the rotor position before removing it and I used sharpie on my cap to get the wires back in the right order.  :) 

I have not replaced the coil. Growing up my dad always replaced cap and rotor. 

On Sat, Jan 27, 2018, 05:31 ArdWrknTrk [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Pebcak wrote
The only thing I can think of that I haven't changed for spark/ignition are the plug wires.  

New: starter, battery, battery cables, ground wire, solenoid and Motorcraft plugs.  If I've missed something let me know and I'll look as well.
I don't see any mention of distributor, cap, rotor, or coil.

You know, the -ignition system- that those plug wires connect all together.
Lil' Red
'87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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NAML
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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Re: Fuel lines

ArdWrknTrk
Here's a suggestion.
When the truck starts acting up, pull over (if it is safe to do so) open the hood and feel the ignition coil.

Is it scorching hot?
Did you burn yourself, or is it just warm-hot?

A coil that is struggling will get hot.
(So will one with too much dwell, but we aren't talking points here)

Lil' Red
'87 F250, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Fuel lines

Pebcak
So Far I've done the following.

- Driving at a lower gear - still does the same thing in any gear.
- Loosened gas cap - No change
- Cleaned out the carb without taking it off. - No change but looks a lot better. :)
- Rotor test for spring back with the advance plate- It does.
- Physically and visually and carb sprayed all vacuum lines and no leaks
- Physically and visually checked all fuel lines and see no leaks
- I'm not 100% sure but I don't think I have an evap canister.  There isn't anything below my battery but the wheel well.  All the emissions stuff was ripped out before I got the truck.

Still to try

- Pull over when happening and feel ignition coil.
- Start the truck when it's dark and look for any glow or sparks around plugs or wires.
- Take out the fuel filter before the fuel pump and change the lines from tank switch to mechanical fuel pump.  Then put the filter between the pump and carb.
- Take the carb off and check float level.

I have a couple other things to do before trying the others.  Might not be until tonight/tomorrow morning.

Thanks again to everyone that's assisting by answering questions.  I'm putting my hands (physically) all over this truck learning as I go!
"Daily Driver" 1986 F150 XLT Lariat, 4X2, 351W, Edelbrock Carb swapped from the Holley
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