Exhaust options for 351W

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Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
Lots going on with Espy... updates in a week or so I hope :)

This means I am starting to look at the next few items. I am going to (or have someone else) rebuild the engine over the winter and the exhaust will need to be replaced as it is pretty rotten. The headers are really annoying, I can hardly reach the spark plugs so I want them to go!! Besides I like the look of long headers.

So from Exhaust port to tailpipe, no emission concerns here, what do you all think?

1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gary Lewis
Administrator
If you are asking whether to go with long-tubes or not, I'll say yes.  But you said "The headers are really annoying", so I'm not sure.

You will hear a lot of people say "No way, Jose!"  I think they've had cheap headers and the thin flanges warped and let the gaskets leak.  I didn't have any trouble with the L&L's on Big Blue, probably because of the 1/2" thick flange.

But, I've not run this new set yet, so can't say about them.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
Ah, sorry. I should have said the headers on Espy now are short and twisty. They are a pain to work around and don't look great.

I like the look of long headers and stainless steel, but I have never bought/installed such before and looking for recommendations. I will look in to L&L's, are they just headers?

What other brands are worth investigating?
1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
L&L is a company that specializes in 460 conversions.
They sell headers, engine swap mounts, unique flywheels, alternator mounts, etc..

351 Windsor's are much better supported in the aftermarket.

I wouldn't begin to choose an exhaust until I had speced the engine.

You need to know your cam and redline to determine flow.

You want exhaust volume to keep heat in and velocity high.

You want a collector placed where it will optimise the cam. (Scavenging and reversion)

If you have a builder in mind, discuss your goals WRT torque and horsepower.

Ask THEM what they want to see as far as primary headpipe length and diameter.
Ask them what size and style of muffler they think best.

I've been very tempted by the stainless Shorty's coming out of China.
The flanges are thick, the welds look good, the prices are great.


 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Looks aren't all when it comes to power and reliability.



 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
Gotcha. I will get the engine build sorted first. I was hoping to replace the failing exhaust now and deal with the engine in a few months..
1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Just make a few decisions about how high you're going to rev it and how loud you want it to be.
It's not too difficult.

I'd just hate to see you buy what looks pretty to you and have it be all wrong for your build.
Generally, there is a direct correlation between head pipe length and optimal rpm.

But most of us don't drive their truck at 6.000 rpm everywhere they go.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
Ok, so I know a previous owner did some engine work, not sure if it was just the intake or the cam/pistons etc.. as well.

I am not looking for a hot engine build here, actually, drivability is key, low end torque is something I like.

Espy will be a lake car, carrying paddle boards or bikes, coolers and maybe one day a small fishing boat!

I can hold off on this until the engine is being taken care of.

When that happens I will come back with more sensible questions!

1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Your questions are sensible, as are my replies.

You like the look of stainless long tubes.
Keep the diameter small and be aware of clearance to front driveshaft and transfer case.

At least you don't have to think about a slave cylinder, like Gary.

Do you think you want true duals?
Are you willing to give up that space?

Or do you just want a mellow sound and no restriction?

Given your post I'd think 2 1/2" collectors and a 3" tailpipe at most.
My 460 works well with this and a 750 CFM Holley carb.

Anything more is WAY too much on a 351 (imho)
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
Jim, agreed on all fronts, the joys of this forum, everyone so helpful!

I definitely like the look of dual exhausts, currently Espy has duals exiting behind the rear axle, I like that look.

Making a note on the "2 1/2" collectors and a 3" tailpipe", where do you source such items and appropriate headers?

Sorry for the dumb questions. As always I am learning as I go here, never done this stuff before.
1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I'd say those dimensions are an absolute max given your engine and intentions.
If you're going duals 2 1/2" exits would be my max, and maybe 2 1/4 system to 2 1/2 resonators or tips.

As I said before, a consultation with your engine builder will reveal a lot.
Sometimes the biases of the builder...
But they are never going to suggest anything that would make the build you've discussed look bad.

Gary has publicly dealt with both Tim and Scotty.
These guys are awesome!
Both placing in Engine Masters, and both not corporate shills.
While I don't know their equal in the Windsor world, you can get much better advice than mine.

I hope your planning pays off.  
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
Don't undersell yourself there Jim!

Not sure where to get the engine done. I do know I want it to be local. Right now I am leaning towards a rebuild by a local shop. Plan B would be a crate engine. I have time to make my mind up.

As much as I want to build an engine, I just don't have the experience or anyone in my friend circle that does. So maybe next time..
1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
But you have US.  🥺

Really.
Just make some goals or needs and refine from there.
I've always caught a lot of flak because I say you have to consider everything as a system.

Choose every component to not only work toward that goal, but to work together.

You want a 351 that makes 350/350 and has a broad power band?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Rusty_S85
In reply to this post by Gsmblue
Were your short headers like these that I have?



I personally wouldnt run long tube.  Every long tube ive seen installed on these trucks hang down below the crossmember.  The ones I got uses the OE ball flange for the OE 2 1/2" Y pipe which will provide a better seal than the paper gasket flanges of yesterday.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Rusty_S85
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
Hell stock 351w`s used a single 2 1/4" tail pipe after the muffler with the pipes being 2 1/2" before the muffler.

That should be a good starting point for any 351w long as you are not turning more rpm than stock.

I stuck with that size layout as I myself am doing a 306 build which I think 2 1/4" tail pipe with the rest being 2 1/2" should be about right for a 6,000 redline.
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
Oh now, the headers I have a work of art, just don't try removing spark plugs or even the leads! Here is an old pic, as the truck is still in the shop I can't get any new ones for a while..

They have "Edlebrock" on the side but I have never been able to work out what design they are, or why they are so crazy looking.



If you know why they are like this, please let me know!
1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

FuzzFace2
From the look of the picture they would be long tube but hard to tell.
If they dump where the factory Y pipe would then the longer tubes would be their way of making them long tube.
You also get them crazy shapes when trying to make all the tubes the same lengths.
If the other side had no restrictions then to match this side they had to go crazy.  

As Jim pointed out headers are made to work in a certain RPM range.
Smaller tubes keeps the velocity high ay lower RPM to help pull the gasses out of the motor but not made for higher RPMs.
Larger tubes would have lower velocity flow at low RPMs so don't work to good at low RPM but start turning higher RPMs and now you are back up with the velocity to pull the gasses up of the motor.

BTW in racing with open headers you want to run header extensions of a certain lengths for RPM range too.
Dave ----

BTW Eldy sold headers and shorties at one time, don't know if they still do.
I know years ago they stopped making shorties for Jeeps and there was 1 set that fit AMC cars. To get rid of stock they were selling them 50% off. I got a set for my Javelin and hope they fit as I have not tried them, the long tube headers have pin holes and gasket leaks.
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Rusty_S85
Yep thats what I was going to post but you got to it before I had a chance to post.

Just their way of making the tubes equal length.  You can go quite insane when it comes to equal length on the headers.

Such as this popular old hotrod photo here.



As far as rpm range thats right.  Shorties are typically street headers good to about 5,500 - 6,000 rpm while long tube headers are more geared for the 6,000 - 7,500 rpm range.

But many people have claimed that long tube headers actually build more low end power than shorty headers.

I wouldnt know about that, I only picked shorty headers for my 306 build cause I am not turning over 5,500 rpm in my 306 and I figured they would be a step up above stock manifolds but wouldnt be as extreme as full length.

Plus the ones I picked also fit very much like OE manifolds which will make life easy for me to get to plugs.  Ive seen some horrible headers that you cant even get to the spark plugs with a socket and its like really?  Do you really have to squeeze every ounce of power with your design that you cant even get to the plugs
"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

Gsmblue
 Very interesting!

When I get her back I will get better pics..

I drove by the shop today and took this:



Should have her back next week!
1985 F150 XL Explorer 5.0 EFI 4AOD 4x4 standard cab.
Daily Driver. I call her Eunice.
To do:  Rear fuel tank pump, replace door hinges, Front and rear windows need replacing, blue top steering box, front dampers, Interior panels to be painted, new carpet, seats to be recovered, some exterior paint work

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351 C6 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project page for details.
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Re: Exhaust options for 351W

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I thought it was Eunice that needed a new tank?

I'd start gathering parts for Espy's new heart.
GT40 heads, maybe a stroker crank?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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