Bullnose Enthusiasts Forum

EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Classic

List

Threaded

72 messages Options

1234

66gtk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Cold start

Drive (short video ends with truck dying in the intersection)

Hot idle after drive and restart

Another idle video from end of winter storage

'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain

Gary Lewis

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

Did it die in the intersection in the second video? On transition from idle?

It seemingly runs well save for what appear to be problems on transitions. So I'm hoping you can get that sorted and not have to pull all the other stuff off.

But, if you do, here are some thoughts:

The EEC systems I've been around on these trucks were stand-alone systems, meaning they had their own wiring. The ECA/ECU on my '82 was under the driver's seat and there was a boot that went into the floor to seal the wire. I wound up cutting the harness not far off the ECA, traced those wires to each of the senders/actuators, and then removed each of those awa the associated wiring.

It wasn't too bad since it was an add-on harness so wasn't integrated into the other wiring. Sometimes it went under another harness, but I could usually slide it out and continue following it to the sender or actuator.

You'll have a large tote full of "stuff" if you do that. And you'll have to replace the distributor and ignition module as well as the wiring to it. Plus, the carb is a feedback unit, and there won't be any input to it. You could try to run it and see how it does. It may work just fine, or it may not. But you said you have the dizzy, ignition module, wiring, and carb, so you are basically set.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

66gtk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Gary - Yes, in that video it was running/idling well until taking off from that stop where it died in the intersection.

'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain

Gary Lewis

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

If it was me I'd pull the connector to the throttle position sensor, but a DVM on it, and watch to see what happens as you slowly open and close the throttle. (Actually what would be better would be an analog ohm meter so you could see the meter move.)

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

66gtk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Gary - where exactly is the TPS??

'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain

66gtk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

This?

'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain

Gary Lewis

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

In reply to this post by 66gtk

On the front passenger's side corner of the carb according to the illustration I have. And it has three wires to it, which you can see in the schematic below - and while it isn't completely accurate for your truck, the TPS circuit is correct:

Orange/White: VREF, which is Circuit 351

Dark Green/Light Green: Circuit 355

Black/White: SRTN which is Circuit 359

As for testing it, go to Documentation/Electrical/ELECTRONIC ENGINE CONTROL (EEC) and go to the EEC-III tab. Then scroll down to Page 28-64, where the testing is explained. But note that they mention the name of the signal going to the TPS, and not the color of the wire. However, they also show the circuit #, which is why I did the translation above.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

I need to steal this illustration, showing C109 for the other thread looking at the spout on a 1985 4.9.

I'm not that nimble on a phone, pasting images into replies.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

You did it!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

With your help.

Thanks Gary!

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

LARIAT 85

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

The problems you've described sound like a throttle position sensor issue. If the ECA doesn't know where the throttle is it will cause all sorts of problems, and your issues seem to be associated with changing the throttle position.

I agree with Gary.

The throttle position sensor is attached to the throttle lever on your carburetor. There is a good chance that whoever you got to rebuild your carburetor accidentally damaged it.

I took the liberty and checked with Rock Auto, and they sell replacements for your truck for only $20 - $35. I would replace it and see if that fixes your problem before converting the entire system over to something else.

Lucille: 1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors: Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain: AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.

66gtk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

This post was updated on .

I've also read that the TPS needs a critical installation calibration of some sort. The book I have says you need the DSIII tester to make sure it's aligned correctly. Huh?

Testing it 0-5 volts with a meter doesn't sound overly difficult. I'll try that first. I'm also wondering about the 02 sensor. Dang, that sucker is hard to reach/access with tools.

'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain

LARIAT 85

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

In reply to this post by 66gtk

66gtk wrote

Cold start

Drive (short video ends with truck dying in the intersection)

Hot idle after drive and restart

Another idle video from end of winter storage

I am sorry I don't have anything else to contribute to help you with your problem, but I have a question for you:

In your "Cold Start" video, am I understanding correctly and that was your first start in 3 weeks? It looks like your starting procedure was only one single pump of the gas and your truck started up after only a little bit of cranking?

Guys, is this normal for these stock carbureted trucks with computers? I have an older 1960s-era Autolite 4100 on Lucille that is very similar to the Motorcraft 2150. It runs as close as you can get to fuel injection and I am extremely happy with it. If I drive it every day or every other day, it starts right up with only a single pump of the gas without any problems. But if I let it sit for three weeks, my starting procedure is quite different than this video. I would have to re-prime the carburetor by pumping the gas at least 5 times before attempting to start it. I have to let it crank for about 10 seconds, stop, and then repeat the process. It will usually start right up on the second round.

Why does my truck need that, and his doesn't? Is it because he has an engine computer and mine doesn't? After I do that, it will go back to one single pump of the gas if I drive it every day or every other day. If it sits 5 days, I will need to give it 5 pumps of gas before starting the engine. But it starts right up and even faster than my fuel injected vehicles. This works perfect every single time.

Gary Lewis

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

Rick - I think it varies significantly with the gas being used as well as the temperature - both the ambient as well as the carb. And I don't think the system holds pressure as much as the gas doesn't evaporate from the carb.

Ethanol has a lower boiling point than gasoline, so if you are using ethanol and your environment is hot it'll evaporate earlier than if using gas in a cool climate. If your carb gets hot it'll evaporate, so that has something to do with the heat crossover in the intake manifold.

IOW, there are lots of variables. But in my experience, most if not all of my trucks would not start that easily after 3 weeks of sitting.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

I think Rick should just crank to fill the bowl(s) and then pump a few times to get the throat wet.
It should fire right off after that.

Pumping with a dry bowl (and accelerator pump) isn't doing anything, and may damage rubber. Like the pump piston skirt in my Eddy...

Ethanol doesn't have enough volatility at low temps either, but still enough to evaporate over winter.
It's the worst. Because of its affinity for water it will get saturated over time and drop to the bottom of any container.
You end up with 'water bottom' in your tanks due to condensation, and 'gel' in your carb bowls.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

Good point about the accelerator pump. But his carb should have the Holley-style pump and I doubt it hurts it. Score one for that pump, which makes it 10-1 against.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

Right

But rubber still sits dry and tends to crack after it's been soaking in gasoline for years.

Cranking first, before pumping the pedal, takes nothing to implement, and is probably best practices.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

66gtk

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

This post was updated on .

Yes, one pump is all it's ever needed and 2-3 seconds of cranking. Here's a real good old fashioned video to watch on how to start a carbureted vehicle and why it only takes one full pump. I also run only non oxygenated, ethanol free fuel and put seafoam in the tank for stabilizer and other benefits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BTEdWt2V3s

I did a little experimenting the other day. I have an analog voltmeter on order, but in the meantime I decided to go for a little test drive. While the vehicle was cold (at least a day since running), I unplugged the TPS from the harness completely. The start up procedure was the same and the truck started up easily and idled well. Drove around town until fully warmed up and it seemed to do pretty much the same thing it always does (mild stumbling) but not much hit/miss variability. It was also not an all day drive - quite short.

I left it running while I plugged the TPS back into the harness. The idle changed by a very small amount and I heard a few clicks of various solenoids after plugging it in. After about 30 seconds I disconnected it again (truck still running whole time). Idle changed ever so slightly and then I plugged it in again. Same result as before - slight idle change and a few solenoid clicks.

I drove it home with the TPS reconnected to compare the drive so far and it would be difficult for me to tell which drive had it connected vs unconnected.

I was actually expecting some sort of limp mode while the TPS was disconnected and was surprised there was so little change. I'm not sure what that means, but I look forward to my TPS voltage test next week. Perhaps I'm in limp mode all the time now? Probably not, but when the truck seems to fall on it's butt at times it certainly does feel like a limp mode situation. I'm not sure if the EEC-III even does that if something isn't right in the feedback loop.

I'd also like to test the feedback carburetor connection and voltage, but not sure how or what to look for. My connector to the back carb appears to have only two wires (brown and red) going into the plug in.

'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain

85lebaront2

Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Administrator

Ok, 1983 EEC-III 5.0L the piece on the back of the carburetor is the mixture control solenoid, red is battery, tan with a light green dot is mixture control. That will be a pulsing or variable reading to ground through the EEC.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

1234