E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Jacob84
Hey guys. I have completed my new 351w that will be going in my truck by the end of the month. Now I'm onto transmissions. I have a C6 in my truck. I also own a complete but wore out E4OD transmission and the parts truck it came out of. As the E4OD is rather pricey to rebuild and requires a controller, it makes me want to invest in the C6. I live where there are many hills (mountains to us locals) and curvy highways so vehicles don't stay in OD very much so the C6 is adequate for me unless I go on a road trip. The E4OD also doesn't have a good reputation for reliability and the C6 is known to be extremely tough and simple.

All that being said, if you want to try and convert me from the C6 and build the E4OD I'll start another thread and we can do a C6 vs E4OD discussion. I'm 100% open to y'all's opinions on it. Most of you have much more experience.

I have heard of people installing the planetary gearset of the E4OD in the C6 giving you lower gearing. I think that's something I would really like and I own the parts for it.  

C6: 1st - 2.46  2nd - 1.46  3rd - 1.00

"Wide Ratio C6" 1st - 2.71  2nd - 1.54  3rd - 1.00

Does anyone have experience doing this and results? Are there any resources that y'all know of that would be beneficial? This is something I'll be doing myself to keep cost down. I'd learn something new and I'd have a blast doing it. Top it off with a high quality convertor, shift kit, and a good cooler and I think I'd be happy.
84 F150 base model, 351w HO, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 31s, stock suspension. New 95 roller 351w coming soon with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Angelo Voltura
In my opinion the gearing between them is close enough that you wouldn't even notice the difference.
1979 F150 "406M"
1985 F250 (Dads) 351W
1995 F150 (1985 clip swapped) 300
1997 F250 HD 351W
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
That's what I was thinking as well, Angelo.  Glad someone else said it first.

As for the E4OD's problems, my understanding is that they were resolved, one at a time, and if you have a tranny with the fixes in you'll be good.  Or, if you are building one you should add them.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

TheScatch
after researching I decided to replace my C6 with an E40D, got lucky and found a 95 E-150 that had a new transmission put in it a year or so ago so I'm not worried about the issues that the early ones had like Gary pointed out. The controller is definitely an added expense. Thought about using a tax return in the next year or so to get a gear vendors unit and put it behind the E4OD as well giving it 8 speeds.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

grumpin
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
As for the E4OD's problems, my understanding is that they were resolved, one at a time, and if you have a tranny with the fixes in you'll be good.  Or, if you are building one you should add them.
As you probably know, I’ll disagree with that if you put an E4OD behind a 6.9, 7.3 or 460. Or something with a lot of horsepower and torque. The one I had in my 94 F250 had everything done to it (as told by the dealership warranting it) to make it, what was next?  
The 4R100. It was problematic.

Now the one in my 92 Bronco has been trouble free.

That 94 had 4.10 gears and my 86 with the C6 has 3.55. I don’t mind the C6 at all, but it’s not one I take on long road trips.

I like the C6 as you stated tough and simple.
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 Suburban LT K2500 454 4L80E
2000 Nissan Xterra XE 4WD 3.3 RE4R01A
Oregon
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

85lebaront2
Administrator
(a) drag racers use E4OD gearsets in a C6 as it helps launch better. (b) I'm glad you warned me about E4OD problems, according to my transmission guy when I got the parts truck when I asked him if I should go through it (I have most of the special tools) he said just run it. That was 5 years ago, all I did was a fluid and filter change.

Biggest problem with the E4OD is the programming in the EEC or TCM, it uses the torque converter a lot which generates tons of heat, I do my own tuning and have my unlock set at 80% throttle, it will usually downshift about that point, and re-lock shortly afterwards. I let the 460s torque do the work like it is a manual transmission.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Angelo Voltura
A good cooler goes a long way with heat problems for E4OD's. I once overheated mine and it leaked out the input shaft seal all over the ground. As soon as it cooled down, it was good to go. That was 5 years and 250k miles ago.
1979 F150 "406M"
1985 F250 (Dads) 351W
1995 F150 (1985 clip swapped) 300
1997 F250 HD 351W
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

85lebaront2
Administrator
I have both the radiator cooler and the auxiliary one that Darth came with for the C6, just used the transmission lines from the parts truck.
Bill Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Jacob84
In reply to this post by Angelo Voltura
You’re right, It’s not too big of a difference. About a 10% reduction in 1st and about 5% reduction for 2nd compared to the C6. It’s some but not a lot
84 F150 base model, 351w HO, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 31s, stock suspension. New 95 roller 351w coming soon with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Jacob84
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
85lebaront2 wrote
Biggest problem with the E4OD is the programming in the EEC or TCM, it uses the torque converter a lot which generates tons of heat, I do my own tuning and have my unlock set at 80% throttle, it will usually downshift about that point, and re-lock shortly afterwards. I let the 460s torque do the work like it is a manual transmission.
What tuning software do you use? Do you get into the Ford EEC system or do you have an aftermarket controller like the USShift? The biggest reason I’m hesitant to build that E4OD is having to drop the money on a controller
84 F150 base model, 351w HO, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 31s, stock suspension. New 95 roller 351w coming soon with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In case Bill's gone to bed, he's running Ford's EEC-V EFI system, and he's used Binary Editor from Core Tuning to modify it.  That allows all sorts of control over the EFI as well as the E4OD.

And, he has me following in his footsteps.  Big Blue will soon be running EEC-V, although the tranny is a ZF5.  But Dad's truck is next, and it has an E4OD.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Jacob84
In reply to this post by grumpin
grumpin wrote
The one I had in my 94 F250 had everything done to it (as told by the dealership warranting it) to make it, what was next?  
The 4R100. It was problematic.

Now the one in my 92 Bronco has been trouble free.

I like the C6 as you stated tough and simple.
What kind of issues where you having with it? If I built the one I have it would be dealing with 351w torque but a transmission is something I want over-built, I don’t want to worry about it. It’s a tool to get power to the ground and needs to be tough.

And the simplicity of the C6 is hard to beat. Kickdown rod and one vacuum line, that’s about all it takes. I’ve never wondered if it was strong enough.
84 F150 base model, 351w HO, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 31s, stock suspension. New 95 roller 351w coming soon with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Jacob84
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
In case Bill's gone to bed, he's running Ford's EEC-V EFI system, and he's used Binary Editor from Core Tuning to modify it.  That allows all sorts of control over the EFI as well as the E4OD.

And, he has me following in his footsteps.  Big Blue will soon be running EEC-V, although the tranny is a ZF5.  But Dad's truck is next, and it has an E4OD.
I’ll have to check that out. My new motor is gonna have an EFI system from Summit but I have the computer my E4OD came with (95 f150).

Do you know if it would be possible to control that trans with the stock computer (or a different Ford computer) using that software and the correct sensors/inputs without it controlling the engine?
84 F150 base model, 351w HO, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 31s, stock suspension. New 95 roller 351w coming soon with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
It isn't possible with that ECU since it expects to be controlling the engine.  But I'm told you can use an ECU from a diesel with an E4OD to control it.  However, I don't know if Core Tuning/Binary Editor works with that.  I would think they do but haven't asked.

Bill and I are running Ford's EEC-V with MAF and SEFI, which means we can pull into any Ford dealership and get support.  Plug a scanner in and know what the problem is.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

grumpin
In reply to this post by Angelo Voltura
Angelo Voltura wrote
A good cooler goes a long way with heat problems for E4OD's. I once overheated mine and it leaked out the input shaft seal all over the ground. As soon as it cooled down, it was good to go. That was 5 years and 250k miles ago.
Mine did that after I moved a travel trailer for someone. Put it in a spot I didn’t think it would go in to.

The young ladies dad was a retired trucker. He says just do what I tell you, you’ll be fine. Got it in and unhooked ready to pull out and it dumped out of the input shaft. Shut it off, let it cool and away I went.
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 Suburban LT K2500 454 4L80E
2000 Nissan Xterra XE 4WD 3.3 RE4R01A
Oregon
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

grumpin
In reply to this post by Jacob84
Jacob84 wrote
grumpin wrote
The one I had in my 94 F250 had everything done to it (as told by the dealership warranting it) to make it, what was next?  
The 4R100. It was problematic.

Now the one in my 92 Bronco has been trouble free.

I like the C6 as you stated tough and simple.
What kind of issues where you having with it? If I built the one I have it would be dealing with 351w torque but a transmission is something I want over-built, I don’t want to worry about it. It’s a tool to get power to the ground and needs to be tough.

And the simplicity of the C6 is hard to beat. Kickdown rod and one vacuum line, that’s about all it takes. I’ve never wondered if it was strong enough.
Had the pump replaced and 2 or 3 solenoid packs. Can’t remember what else while I owned it. A lot was done before I owned it. Could have been a lemon I guess.

Maybe it doesn’t equate to HP and Q, but I don’t know what else it would be.

You might be fine with the 351W, that’s whats in my Bronco.
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 Suburban LT K2500 454 4L80E
2000 Nissan Xterra XE 4WD 3.3 RE4R01A
Oregon
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Jacob84
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
It isn't possible with that ECU since it expects to be controlling the engine.  But I'm told you can use an ECU from a diesel with an E4OD to control it.  However, I don't know if Core Tuning/Binary Editor works with that.  I would think they do but haven't asked.

Bill and I are running Ford's EEC-V with MAF and SEFI, which means we can pull into any Ford dealership and get support.  Plug a scanner in and know what the problem is.
I’ve looked up that diesel tcm/pcm, $200 on RockAuto. I would have to find what inputs it needs. I would assume TPS, rpm, speed, maybe coolant temp. But that’s an option if I can get it modified.

That was my initial plan. Build a complete 95 f150 power train and slip it into my truck so I would have that parts store and dealer support. But rodents got to the wiring and I would’ve had to rebuild the majority of the electrical system and jumped through some more hoops to retrofit it
84 F150 base model, 351w HO, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 31s, stock suspension. New 95 roller 351w coming soon with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: E4OD gears in a C6 aka wide ratio C6?

Jacob84
In reply to this post by grumpin
grumpin wrote
Had the pump replaced and 2 or 3 solenoid packs. Can’t remember what else while I owned it. A lot was done before I owned it. Could have been a lemon I guess.

Maybe it doesn’t equate to HP and Q, but I don’t know what else it would be.

You might be fine with the 351W, that’s whats in my Bronco.
Man, those solenoid packs are nearly $200 new today, that’s the kind of stuff I’d like to avoid. But like you said, it could’ve been a lemon. My motor isn’t going to be putting out a ton of power although it will be stout.
84 F150 base model, 351w HO, MSD 6AL, C6 trans, 9 inch rear, reg cab, long bed, 4x4. 31s, stock suspension. New 95 roller 351w coming soon with 5.0 ho roller cam, aftermarket efi, and other toys.