Don's (Pebcak) 351 upgrade Project

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Edit: gear and tire choice make a big difference in how the truck will drive.

Yes sir, everything has to be considered in the complete package. My little Bullnose weighs in just a hair under 3400 lbs, which is quite light compared to a 8-lug 4x4 with a big block. Add bumpers and other accessories and it goes up from there. Earlier on I wondered why the truck guys were hating on the little 302 so much, but when I consider what my truck might feel like with another 2000 lbs added to it, I might not like my 302 either...lol.

I agree with Gary on talking to the Cam manufacturers, and then you can take their recommendation and make a choice from there. I spoke to both Crane and Comp at the time, and they recommended similar but slightly different cams. I think the complete kits with lifters and timing chain are a good option too, and Summit and Jegs and everybody else sells them.

HOLY MOLY Y'ALL!!!!!

I'm awake now!!! I've been reading, cross referencing, surfing and watching videos since 6:45 AM here at work!

To summarize a little of what I'm understanding and reading is.

Jim,

Thank you for explaining everything in food!  It helped me understand "lobe", "Full lift", "base circle", rocker arms and the whole process better.  What an education this early in the morning!!

When it comes to the EGR on my old intake.  It's there but the hose is looped upon itself to not have a vacuum leak.  It was that way when I got it.  So my question is, "Do I even need it in the future?" and "Is it doing anything anyways?"  That's why I'm thinking no EGR on the new intake.

Cory,

What can I say, I'm drooling....  That's a beautiful truck and engine bay!  They guys here at work are jealous of how clean that truck is!

The 256 might be a little more than I need because I'll will very rarely go that high in the RPM's. I think the 250 is more in my range for DD.  Yes/No?

Thank you for the suggestion for the spacer!  My neighbor has one that he's giving me that's for the 1406 Edelbrock I have.  Good to know I'm learning a little on my own.

Gary,

Thank You again for grabbing my collar as I was leaning into the rabbit hole drooling at all the pictures, videos and talk on the post.  I'm coming to my senses and I'm going to take notes of what Cory and Jim added and call Comp to find out a reasonable selection.  I'm not dismissing what anyone said and am taking it all in.  Thank You so much guys!

To All,

When it came to the timing I've been told 4 degree by quite a few gear heads and mechanics here.  Initially it was suggested to get this Comp Cam and then y'all we're also talking about the XE250-H.  When comes to the fine details I start getting lost so I'll defer to people that know what they're talking about.

Right now my follow up question and what I'm going to ask Comp also is "To do the cam and timing correctly, should I just get the whole kit so it's easier in the end or are the rebuilt (passenger) and new (drivers) header hardware acceptable?"

I can't say "Thank You" enough guys!  I'll post what Comp says to me when I call them sometime this week.

Guess I better get to work.  IT tickets are piling up here at the Plant.  Network/Security never get a pass.  It's always the networks fault that things aren't working right.

Pebcak wrote

Jim,

Thank you for explaining everything in food!  

Ha! I like this.

Pebcak wrote

Cory,

What can I say, I'm drooling....  That's a beautiful truck and engine bay!  They guys here at work are jealous of how clean that truck is!

The 256 might be a little more than I need because I'll will very rarely go that high in the RPM's. I think the 250 is more in my range for DD.  Yes/No?

I would agree on the 250. Everybody that installs one seems to be pretty darn happy with them.

Pebcak wrote

I can't say "Thank You" enough guys!  I'll post what Comp says to me when I call them sometime this week.

I'd be surprised if they didn't recommend the XE250H.

Pebcak wrote

Guess I better get to work.  IT tickets are piling up here at the Plant.  Network/Security never get a pass.  It's always the networks fault that things aren't working right.

I have a friend in IT, and says everything is PICNIC...."Problem In Chair, Not In Computer".

Don,

You don't 'need' EGR at all.
It allows you to run a little more advance while cruising, and a leaner mixture, without knock.
This helps fuel mileage.

What you say about how you drive I'm going to retract my recommendation for the RPM and the 256.

I don't know how much retard Ford put in the 351 gears.
Go 'straight up' like I recommend and you can't go wrong.

-i DO know the factory retard on a 385 series is 8* at the crank, 4* at the cam.

Tell me to shut up if I talk too much.  

But if you want more food analogies, or ever want to talk Chili, I'm all ears!

First, as one who spent many years in networking, I'm always amazed at how often it is thought to be the problem.  

Second, the 260H is a good cam as well.  Here's a side-by-side look at the specs of the two cams.  The 260's intake is advanced 5 degrees but has a bit less lift.  However, the exhaust lobes have the same timing but with just a bit less lift on the 260.

It'll be interesting to see what the tech says you should have.

We do PICNIC, ID 10 T (idiot) issues and Pebcak/Pebkac here.

Just Sunday my work phone was being blown up for a Network outage.  They we're freaking out because of a new robotic installation and after 4 hours they figured out it was their own terminations on their cabling.  But it was "The Network" all along.  

Anywho..  Don't get me started...  

From what I've read about, the EGR seems a little more critical/a pain when not working on 87 or higher model trucks because of the dummy light, emissions and electronics.  

For fuel mileage there's a mixed reaction of how much it actually affects people.  

Since all of the emissions is already removed on mine, the EGR vacuum line is looped to itself and no electronics I'm thinking I don't need it then.

With timing (retard) what people have said to me and my recent education, the consensus is my setup should be a retard of 4 degrees at the cam.  

There's a lot of material I found saying that 0 degree is the standard from the factory.  People say 4 degree depending on stock cams, stock motor and/or Ford wanting to pass emissions in the 70's and 80's.  I don't know how much of that is fact because, as we all know, "If it's on the internet it's true."

Don’t forget that if your engine originally had EGR then the ignition advance was set up for a lot of advance during cruise, which is when the EGR would have been “on”.  So without EGR you’ll have too much advance and will probably have pinging.

So you’ll want to modify the advance curve if you don’t have EGR.

You need to distinguish between ignition timing and cam timing...  

Yeah, if you have no emissions inspection and no Cats, etc.... there's no need to keep an EGR manifold.
(I think that's what I said)
But EGR would allow you to have more ignition advance in cruise.

***"Look into the Crane adjustable vacuum advance sold for pre-emission FORD/MERCURY vehicles.
You will need to tune your curve for the changes you're making.

I can only speak for the 4/8 degree cam retard in 385 series trucks.
I CAN say that with the change to EFI in 1988, 385 series trucks got a straight up roller timing set.
So for us guys a cheap upgrade is '88 & up stock chain set.

Gaaah

This is what I get for putting my phone on do not disturb...

Gary beats me to the punch.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Gaaah

This is what I get for putting my phone on do not disturb...

Gary beats me to the punch.

It isn't a race, although there may be some friendly competition.  

No. I didn't mean like that.

I meant, I didn't want to be bothered by the constant 'ping', and then I ended up making a redundant post.

You did get to it first.
I just meant to acknowledge that.

I didn't mean it was bad.  Don't worry, I wasn't at all concerned.

Pebcak wrote

To All,

When it came to the timing I've been told 4 degree by quite a few gear heads and mechanics here.


Right now my follow up question and what I'm going to ask Comp also is "To do the cam and timing correctly, should I just get the whole kit so it's easier in the end or are the rebuilt (passenger) and new (drivers) head hardware acceptable?

I realize that I didn't address these.

1) I believe the guy I know, and has grease under their fingernails.

2) First you have to know what hardware you DO have.
If you don't want this to be a very painful and expensive learning experience, get the right retainers, springs and shims.

Set the head up to work with the cam you decide on.
I'll add, (again) you don't need or want the complexity of a multi key or infinitely adjustable timing sprocket.
KISS, and you can't make an expensive mistake.

Don,

Since this is to be an 'emissions delete' vehicle and you have had the heads refurbished (IDK to what extent)  I'm going to explain plugging the AIR pump thermactor port in the back of each head.

When you pulled the heads off you noticed a tube connecting the two, with a check valve attached towards the center.
On a Windsor engine the port where these attach is threaded 5/8-11.

You can use either a shortened bolt (about 3/4" long) with a copper crush washer, or a 5/8-11 pipe plug with a square or hex recess.

It's really important to make sure it (they) are sealed, because that thermactor passage leads directly to each exhaust port.
You will otherwise have a really loud ticking exhaust leak that will scorch your firewall.

Good point, Jim.

Don - You may have to run a tap into the hole in order to find threads, much less get something to thread in there.  I've seen them coked up to the point they were almost closed.

I can quickly see this thread morphing into MANY eight page microanalyses (?)

Maybe Don should start a "351 upgrade" project thread?  😉

Going by how clean his refreshed cylinder heads look, I would imagine that the shop cleaned those holes out...or at least I would think that they would. Either way, they still need to be plugged.



Ford did away with those thermactor holes later on. My SBF GT40 heads are from an Explorer and there are no Thermactor humps, ports, or holes.

Jegs and others sell Thermactor hole plugs, linked below. I actually bought a set but later sold them with some other stuff when I realized that I didn't need them;).

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/51495/10002/-1

5/8" Bolts are just as easy as noted...and on the back of the engine, who cares what they look like anyway.

I didn't see the pic of his heads.     *swoon

Yes, you can also buy 0.666" Welsh plugs at NAPA. I forget the p/n.
They knock in just like on the front of the heads.

No use for "afterburner" once they went efi.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I didn't see the pic of his heads.     *swoon

You know you're a gearhead when you can appreciate a picture of a clean set of SBF cylinder heads;)