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DS I vs DS II conversion

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Gary Lewis

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

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I agree with Jim. Whomever is telling you that DS-II is fixed is wrong on that point. Which raises the question of what else he's wrong on?

A factory DS-II retards the spark during cranking, and it makes a significant difference. I say "factory" because there are DS-II modules that don't. When I got Big Blue it was hard to turn him over when the engine was hot because it kicked back on the starter. I had another module and swapped it out and it started MUCH easier. Apparently the module on it did not honor the white lead's input. (You can find lots of documentation on the retard feature on the internet, including FTE.)

I guess it is possible that the gentleman on FTE didn't mean that DS-II is ALWAYS fixed, so perhaps omitted that bit? Because the DS-II is fixed other than during cranking.

As for using a TFI coil on DS-II, if it was a good idea Ford would have done it. They had TFI out while they were still producing DS-II. The TFI coil has a lower impedance than a DS-II coil, so the module has to sink more current to charge it. And that current creates heat, which can damage the module. I would not mix components - Ford designed them and didn't.

But, I really don't know much about DS-I, so can't speak to the rest of what he said.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Danny G

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Oh I believe you, I'm just curious where this guy is coming from.

1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew

85lebaront2

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

In reply to this post by Danny G

I agree with what Gary said, the DSII factory and good aftermarket modules do retard the ignition when cranking, that is the reason for the R/LB input to the white wire (circuit 32) He is probably thinking that the lack of the R/LB wire on the DSII modules deleted the cranking retard. I personally do not know who he is or what experience he has, but, I owned a carburetor and ignition shop until Nov 1978, and have worked on damn near every ignition system that comes into this country or was manufactured here. As I pointed out, if you want to put a Chinese copy of a GM ignition on your truck, that is your prerogative, I was pointing out the fact that those units get their hot spark by using a ton of current.

As far as adjusting dwell by rpm he is correct, it does not have a crank retard to my knowledge unless it is rpm controlled like my 1972 Craftsman 10HP engine with electronic ignition, or like the infamous Chrysler Lean Burn, that had two pickups in the distributor, one used for starting the other for running. As for coils, I have never tried a TFI coil on a DSII, but have seen what a high output coil does to a Chrysler module, it cooked it in roughly 30 mins of running. There are probably some aftermarket higher output coils that are compatible with the DSII, He is full of it on the DSI, it was introduced on Ford products starting in 1974, possibly in CA where the 460 engines had Thermoquads.

I have never tried to experiment with using an HEI module on a heat sink and triggering it with the DSI/DSII distributor, if it will work (needs a good heat sink) it will most likely run the TFI coil as it is very similar in characteristics to the external coil HEI used on some GM engines where the monster cap would not clear. I actually had a Chevy 2.8L HEI distributor built with a Corvair drive and lower housing as it looks almost like the early Corvair distributor, this used a external coil and needed a relay to power it from the battery due to the length of the power feed on a Corvair.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ArdWrknTrk

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

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In reply to this post by Danny G

TheScatch wrote

Oh I believe you, I'm just curious where this guy is coming from.

Left field???

He has already demonstrated his ignorance of the DSII system.
I'd take the rest of it with a grain of salt.

Numberdummy bleeds blue, but he is a vocal critic of Ford's poor implementation.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

LARIAT 85

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

In reply to this post by Danny G

Here is an interesting discussion that same "gentleman" and I got into over this. I think you will find it enlightening and rather entertaining, to say the least:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1535531-installing-300-6-w-duraspark-in-56-f100.html

Lucille: 1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors: Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain: AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

I'm on Dave's side.

At least it isn't 'our friend' with the attitude today.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

Probably his brother

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

I feel sorry for Dave. Good guy.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rembrant

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Oh...I wasn't paying attention, but now I see what's going on here!
It's those pesky Canadians!!!

Hey, out of curiosity, while you're all here discussing DSII and all, I had been meaning to ask before about the failure modes of the modules. I've read previously that they typically work 100% until they don't work at all. That they don't display any weirdness or wonkiness, etc...just that they work one day, and then one day they don't.

Is this pretty much true?

1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

ArdWrknTrk

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Sometimes you're just beating your head on the wall of other people's ignorance....

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rembrant

My personal experience is that they might act up a bit, but don't really stop you.
UNTIL you get a backfire, and they are dead as a doornail.

Others report other findings.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

Much the same, when I first got Darth he had an aftermarket DSII module, when I went to get him inspected, he wouldn't start after I shut him off, shop had one he had pulled from a wreck, plugged it in and everything was fine. I took to carrying a spare.

A number of years later, going up 7 mountains grade on Rt 322W from Harrisburg PA, I got a sudden misfire, tach dropped and the engine quit. I quickly plugged in the spare and continued on.

Interesting side note, while we were checking in to the campout, another man came up and asked what kind of speed I had climbing that stretch (he had a twin to our trailer) I told him 22 mph in 2nd, he did a double take asked what gear I had. His Chevy crew cab DRW with a 454 and 4:10 gear was in 1st at roughly 20 mph, if he tried letting it shift to 2nd, it slowed down. That was when I learned that a 454 in addition to single digit fuel "economy" had no power compared to a 460.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

grumpin

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

My wife’s Suburban has impressed me. The Vortec 454 has a lot of power. Pulled the Xterra up a 6 percent grade from 1200 feet to 5500 on a U Haul auto transporter.

Only thing that slowed me down was construction, actually had to stop at a tunnel. Took off and was going good!

U Haul wouldn’t rent the auto transporter for my F250, they say their computer is right. Ticks me off.

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

85lebaront2

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

This was probably a carbureted 454, the Quadrajets on those typically were into the secondaries at any kind of speed under load. The TBI engines weren't much better. If yours is the Vortec with the nice long runner intake, it is one of the things I wish Ford had done with the 460 EFI engines. Only bad thing is the injector location, inside the "tunnel" the upper half of the intake forms. I had to work on one of them a number of years ago, 7 of the 8 injectors were leaking.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Danny G

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

In reply to this post by LARIAT 85

LARIAT 85 wrote

Here is an interesting discussion that same "gentleman" and I got into over this. I think you will find it enlightening and rather entertaining, to say the least:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1535531-installing-300-6-w-duraspark-in-56-f100.html

Oh boy so this isn't the first time.

I feel like when you get to this point, and have closed yourself down to an actual discussion, it just becomes arguing your point no good bad or otherwise and no one else can have a valid side to the story... kinda like politics.

Its sad when people have lost the discuss, understand and grow aspect of discourse. If you give me solid evidence my point of view is wrong, well hell I'm wrong, or maybe I'm half right and your half right and we come to a better conclusion together. People just aren't willing to do that anymore, its either attack or be attacked mindsets.

1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew

Danny G

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

85lebaront2 wrote

This was probably a carbureted 454, the Quadrajets on those typically were into the secondaries at any kind of speed under load. The TBI engines weren't much better. If yours is the Vortec with the nice long runner intake, it is one of the things I wish Ford had done with the 460 EFI engines. Only bad thing is the injector location, inside the "tunnel" the upper half of the intake forms. I had to work on one of them a number of years ago, 7 of the 8 injectors were leaking.

My only experience with a 454 was in a Class A RV I had, that thing got 10MPG no matter what, up hill down hill sideways, 45mph 70mph. Had it inspected before driving from WA to TX thinking it had a head gasket leak, mech said it was all good. He was wrong, started having some over heat issues tried to push through (was on a deadline to reach TX). About 20 minutes from the TX Border lost all power, coolant flooded the cylinders and locked up the engine, sheared the crankshaft. That's how you get a $400 tow bill and a boat anchor.

1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew

Gary Lewis

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

With regard to "discuss", I'm not sure I agree that "People just aren't willing to do that anymore, its either attack or be attacked mindsets." But I do agree that some people aren't willing to do that. And that's a huge shame. It shuts down others that are willing to discuss and makes people afraid to say anything. That's NOT what we are about here.

As for the 454, that's a real bummer. An expensive situation, all the way around.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Administrator

In reply to this post by grumpin

That is one of the problems with U haul, their computer doesn't go back far enough. When my daughter was moving from one part of Chesapeake VA to another, she had stored a lot of stuff at a storage lot in Virginia Beach. When I went over to help her move it to their new place, the U haul site I went to gave me the "well we need to inspect your truck to see if it can pull the trailer". The kid (probably around 20) who went out with said where is it, I pointed to Darth and said "right there, and I guaranty it will pull anything on your lot including that low boy." he took one look and said, I think you're right. I did buy a plug-in adapter from them because I didn't want them cutting into my wiring and the truck had a factory trailer package with the harness.

Trying to get their system to understand that, yes, it's a 33 year old truck, but was built for towing and spent the first part of it's life pulling horse trailers from Suffolk VA and has a V5 receiver built into the rear bumper.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

grumpin

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

Yes, at one point they would inspect the truck, it is my understanding they don’t anymore. That’s what irks me, you’re right it’ll tow anything on their lot!

On your RV, was it a head gasket? The 454 is notorious for intake manifold leaks and it goes in the crankcase. Happened to me once. The last time the Nemesis (my name for the Burb) broke down on my wife away from home, we used a shop my SIL and her husband knew. They said the infamous intake manifold was leaking, I said fix it!

Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona

Danny G

Re: DS I vs DS II conversion

grumpin wrote

Yes, at one point they would inspect the truck, it is my understanding they don’t anymore. That’s what irks me, you’re right it’ll tow anything on their lot!

On your RV, was it a head gasket? The 454 is notorious for intake manifold leaks and it goes in the crankcase. Happened to me once. The last time the Nemesis (my name for the Burb) broke down on my wife away from home, we used a shop my SIL and her husband knew. They said the infamous intake manifold was leaking, I said fix it!

Yes sir, I suspected it was starting to leak weeks prior but was not sure that's why I paid to have it checked. They didn't do a very good job. As I worked that engine up and down Mt. Rainer it got a bit worse, then through the Colorado Mts etc got worse. I had to spray it to turn it over a few times, kept a bottle of coolant on hand, had no time or money to stop and get it fixed was on my last dollar heading to a good job (current company) down in Texas making nearly 15 times/month what I was in Washington during the recession. If I missed the start date window I would loose the job. Was just hoping to make it until I got to San Antonio. Almost did.

1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew

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