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Carburetors - Gary's Musings

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Gary Lewis

Re: Carburetors - Gary's Musings

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You are getting slow in your old age. 😈

So, what’s the most complex carb? The Q-Jet? Or the VV?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Carbs

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In reply to this post by Edward Michael

It will be available as soon as my new engine goes in with Its 750. }>

Idk, what do you think is fair?
I paid $128.50, bought an ~$30 rebuild kit, a new choke element and an $89!!!!! dual feed fuel line.
Spent a day going through it.
The 1826 seems a good match for my 460 but a little short of wind on top.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

85lebaront2

Re: Carburetors - Gary's Musings

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I was eating dinner, most complex, toss up between the last of the Rochester 4GCs for Oldsmobile, 7 float adjustments, primary heel and toe, drop and vacuum assist on the primary and the Motorcraft 4300D, the Quadrajet wanna-be, two inlet needles, long double pontoon articulated float (they stole that from carter WCDs on Rambler 6s because they sat sideways) and the air valve system with the inverted needles for air bleed on the secondaries. The VV is nothing more complex than downdraft 2bbl Zenith Stromberg. Just takes very sensitive vacuum gauges, like 0-1" HG to set the diaphragm. The main mixture is non-adjustable as built, but can be set if you know how. I put a non-feedback one on a 312 Y-block and got 25 mpg out of it.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Edward Michael

Re: Carbs

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Summit is saying the eddy 1826 is specific to off-road and will not perform well for street use.
Seems that in our situation we are buying off the shelf.
Probably the 1406 as we are running stock engine and not sure we need adjustable secondaries.
Thank you for the consideration on your 1826.

Still more research on the fuel line as we are not interested in running inferior product and rerunning
again later. The ethanol gas law does not look like its changing and I am more into running the tightest
spec and not dealing with it later or even having it in a trouble shooting situation.

Quick example:
Ethanol resistant grade: 25ft is $25
Alcohol/biodiesel grade: 25ft is $75

Cheap investment for the fuel situation here.

85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto

Gary Lewis

Re: Carburetors - Gary's Musings

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In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

I haven’t really played with the 4GC, much less the Olds one. I jumped from a Will Carter Four Barrel to an Aluminum Four Barrel. But played extensively with Q-Jets as well. Never worked on a VV for that matter, although I have worked on many bike carbs with the same principle.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Carbs

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In reply to this post by Edward Michael

The only real difference in AVS carbs is the jetting they come with.
"Street" vs "off road" is the difference between jetting for 'economy' or 'power' on the Edelbrock charts.
I'm fairly sure Gary has been down this road, and has the documentation.

Maybe you should consider marine fuel hose.
That stuff is tough as nails and has a near inpenatrable liner.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Carbs

Administrator

Jim is right, with one minor exception - the inlet needles. The 1826 comes with spring-loaded needles where the 1825 doesn’t. Ebedbrock says it “Includes spring-loaded needles and seats for superior fuel control in off-road terrain.” But, if my memory serves me, back in the day Carter ran spring-loaded inlet needles on many street vehicles. Perhaps Bill can refresh my memory?

Of course Jim rebuilt the carb, as others may have earlier. Jim, did you put sprin-loaded needles in? Those are easily changed.

As for the calibration, Jim is spot-on - the 1826 is calibrated slightly richer at part-throttle. You can see the jetting on Edelbrock’s site, but the two carbs have the same primary and secondary jets as well as the same step-up spring. The only thing that is different is that the 1826 has a metering rod with a smaller cruise size, so that means it will allow a bit more fuel to flow in the cruise mode.

Personally, I wouldn’t at all be concerned about running the 1826 on the street. As said, the inlet needles are easily changed, if they haven’t already been. And the cruise enrichment might be a bonus when running s smaller carb on a big engine.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Carbs

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I seem to recall in my Carter strip kit, there were 3 different size inlet seats and all could use the spring loaded needles. There were also different strength step up (correct term from Carter for the non-mechanical metering system) rod springs to change the vacuum level at which the rod would lift. The absolute best setup was the one Chrysler used on their AFB and AVS carbs, it was a two stage system, and required two changes, neither of which involved different castings. First, the top covers over the pistons had to be raised so the first stage spring and the longer second stage spring could raise the piston higher, the second was the main jets were made taller so the metering location was where the relocated steps (now 3) were. The actual rods were the same length, just had 3 steps instead of 2. The original design had cruise and power steps, the updated design for Chrysler was cruise, moderate load and power. This was to give a smoother transition from cruise to power and allowed leaner cruise jetting.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Carbs

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Yes, all the seats are compatible with the springs-loaded needles, which Edelbrock is saying are for “off-road” use. But weren’t spring-loaded needles used on several GM’s routinely?

As for the step-up spring, both the 1825 and 1826 use the same one, which pops the rods up at 5” of vacuum or less.

And I’ll bet the AVS sitting in my ‘69 Bee is the one with the taller jets and longer rods. I’ll check.

Speaking of AVS, or Air Valve Secondary, Edelbrock is re-using that name they acquired from Carter. They now have an AVS2, which has annular boosters. There’s a neat video that shows the difference. So those, like Fonzie, that tout the annular boosters have a new carb to consider. In fact, we’re I buying a new carb I’d consider it, although I suspect the price is high.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Carbs

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I remember those little springs being a pita, so yes, it does have them.

The kit I ordered was for all AVS and came with both styles

Like I said the carb is good, but runs out of gas on my cammed and straight up 460.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Carbs

Administrator

A 650 is small for a breathed-on 460. But it may be just right for a stock 460. And if you have the solid needles they could be swapped out.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Carbs

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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gee, annular boosters, I guess Ford's patent has long since run out on that design. Every time I see someone else singing the praises of those all I think about is 1957 FoMoCo carburetors and how different they looked from Holley and Carter designs as Ford used all 3 in 1957/58. After that they sort of used Carter on most Lincolns, Holley for performance and FoMoCo, later Autolite and finally Motorcraft on most run of the mill production.

Interestingly, the 1100 (single barrel) was the last introduced and probably the shortest run, from 1963-68 or 69 and was the only one without the annular booster. the 4100 disappeared at the end of 1966, so was out for 10 production years, 1957-1966, the 2100, became the 2150 and was around from 1957-1985 or 1986. The 4300, again no annular boosters, 1967-1970, 4300D 1971-1978, maybe 79 in trucks.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Carbs

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It is interesting to me that there are still "new" carbs coming out. But, they aren't really new as they are, for the most part, just packaging features that have been used heretofore into better carbs. For instance, the Street Demon that was designed by an ex-Carter engineer and has, oddly enough, many of the good features from the Thermoquad and AVS. And now Edelbrock picking up the annular boosters from Ford and adding them to the AVS.

And, here's a pic of the AVS on the Bee. The red arrow shows the raised cover for the longer metering rods that Bill was talking about. The green arrow shows the spring that keeps the air valve closed until a pre-set flow is achieved, and the yellow arrow shows the screw that adjusts that pre-set point.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Carbs

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This post was updated on .

Damn Gary, that AVS on the Bee looks like it has been around here from all the oxididation,

The AVS was apparently in addition to (a) putting the air valve above the fuel delivery and (b) increasing the air flow on the already good size "Daytona" AFB derived from the "Daytona" AFB bowl and air horn castings. The "Daytona" AFB had the large air filter circle like Ford used.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Carbs

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It’ll have to be bead-blasted if I’m to use it again. But is that an “emissions” carb? Is there really any reason to run it on anything?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Carbs

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This post was updated on .

It is emission in the sense it has leaner jets and is set up to run off the idle transfer slots at curb idle. I will have to take another look at the pictures, some of those had a "sealed" idle air bleed in the front center. At least that one has an external bowl vent, and two (probably frozen) idle mixture screws. Biggest emission change on that engine was the retarded initial timing which on Chrysler engines made them very prone to hot start backfires if the throttle was too far open. You used to be able to hear one clear across a parking lot, the ying, ying, ying of the straight cut gears in the starter followed by BOOM, roar when it caught.

The center lead plug on the main body, just under the gasket is the factory sealed idle limit setting, it is an air bleed into the two idle circuits so it affects both the "adjustable" mixture and the idle transfer slot mixture. Emission compliant carburetors were modified so that they could run a retarded timing and as a result a leaner idle mixture. To limit the adjustability, the transfer slots were enlarged in length so the normal curb idle position uncovers them. As a result the idle "mixture" screws become mixture trimming screws and even at full rich setting are still lean enough to satisfy the EPA rules in effect at that time. Chrysler elected to do engine modifications to meet the 1968 clean air regulations, Ford used modifications on automatic trans applications and Thermactor (air pumps) on manual trans. GM, each engine family was different. AMC, same as GM for the most part.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Carbs

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Yes, the hot-start was a problem. And that backfire killed many a power valve on Holleys.

Here's another pic:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Carbs

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Ok, on the front of the air horn, the little "dome" on the casting with a plugged hole in the side, that is the anti-afterburn system, it is a spring loaded ball with an air bleed to over lean the idle circuits on closed throttle to prevent afterburning in the exhaust system, the coast down popping you could get due to unburned fuel in the muffler.

BTW, that is a TSB replacement carb, your Bee originally had a Holley 4160 on it and if you think the 4180 that Ford put on the 460s was a POS, it was way better than the Chrysler designed Holley on the 1968-1970 big blocks.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Carbs

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Actually, there were two carbs for the Bee in '69. The "real" 335 HP Bee's got that AVS, and the 330 HP Bee's got the Holley. I've confirmed that with a lot of research, but it isn't a very well known fact.

My first Bee, new from the factory in May of '69, had the Holley. And you are absolutely right about it being a piece of junk! It was awful, and it was my first Holley, which might explain my lack of love thereof. I was raised with Carters and they were bullet-proof. But that Holley gave me absolutely no end of fits, with a warped main body, blowing power valves, and jetted so lean that it wouldn't accelerate w/o opening the power valve - although that was not Holley's fault.

I thought all Bee's had the Holley until I looked at the factory shop manual, which I have here before me. It says the 383's got the AVS and doesn't even have a section for the 4bbl Holley. But, mine had one the day it rolled out of the factory!

That was a serious point of confusion until one day I was talking with Tony of Tony's Parts the MOPAR guru in lower, slower Delaware - your backyard. I told him of my conundrum and he said "Your engine was turquose and you had A/C and an automatic tranny - right?" Yep, how'd you know? He said "You had the run-of-the-mill 330 HP 383, which they put in the Bee if you ordered A/C and an auto. And it came with the Holley. The 335 HP 383 came with the AVS and was orange." And, that made sense because my Bee said "383 4bbl" on the side, but others said "383 Magnum", which the Bee I currently have says.

Well, that answered the question, but I wasn't really convinced - until I went to the All-Chrysler meet at Carlisle. There was a 1960 Bee survivor that said "383 4bbl" on the side. I asked the owner what carb it had and he said a Carter, but that it originally came with a !@#% Holley, which he had on the shelf. He'd had no end of problems, and finally put a Carter on so he could drive it.

Anyway, the bottom line is that this AVS isn't something I want to run given its emissions "tuning", some of which may not be easily reversed. Right?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Carbs

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Gary, the problems with the Chrysler Holley were primarily, a redesigned primary metering block and the extremely high engine temperatures the Chryslers had. The latter caused the secondary metering body (plate style) to warp so the bottom corners where the lower portion of the idle circuit feed ran on normal Holleys would lift away from the thin rubber coated paper gasket and allow straight gas into the idle circuits, we used to be able to pull the top of the air filter and look down and see the gas bubbling and boiling as it came out of the slots just above the throttle plates. Holley provided a kit to correct that issue, it had a redesigned metering body with the bottom corners cut off and a different plate with instructions to install the new full coverage rubber coated gasket first, then the new plate, then the normal cork/rubber gasket followed by the metering body. This allowed for some warping of the metering body, but would keep it sealed. I used to take the old ones, lay them face up across a big vice and use a brass hammer to flatten them!

On the primary side, the metering block would warp some, bigger issue was Chrysler's specified transition system, a small fuel feed in the lower side of the primary venturiis, this was uncovered by the throttle plates at roughly 1/3 open to help get fuel into the engine before the main nozzles were fully feeding. The other thing, they were very sensitive to fuel level, if it wasn't damn near to flooding level, they would stumble, backfire and cut off, or set the damn air filter on fire.

It wasn't just Holleys either, the 383 2 barrels with either the Stromberg WWC or the Carter BBD 1 1/2" were horrible for warping the air horn, the resulting pressure differential at high throttle would pull raw fuel out of the bowl and foul the plugs, the resulting hot start backfires didn't help and could also result in a crispy critter. Carter provided a 1/4" piece of bar with two long screws and a built in air filter stud to install, and instructions on straightening the air horn. Problem on both carbs was over-tightening the air cleaner wing nut. I put some double 1/4-20 nuts on a few customers cars who were having problems with over zealous pump jockeys doing the underhood checks and giving the air cleaner nut a twist to make sure it was tight.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

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