Carburetors - Gary's Musings
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Yes sir.
Stock 460 with CA smog equipment. Open to adding an intake for better performance. Am not sure how important it is or worth the cost as this is a working daily driver. May EFI is the way to go for maintenance issues as we don't have any fuel without ethanol as far as I know. Updated signature...I think. What is a ... Dual plate intake? Also, not able to cut and paste in this forum. Is that normal? Thank you and Best Regards.
85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto |
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I cut and paste all the time, so not being able to isn’t normal. And, I see the sig - thanks.
A dual-plane intake has runners that are on two different planes, and that is done to equalize the length of the runner so each cylinder’s runners are approximately the same length. And those runners tend to be longer and smaller, so that is good for low-end torque. A single-plane intake just gets from the carb to the valve in the fastest way possible, and usually doesn’t worry about balancing lengths. So they tend to be for higher RPM and give up the low-end torque. As for changing manifolds and carb, do you have emissions inspections? If so, won’t the changes cause problems? As for EFI, it does help make an engine run better in all conditions, but then there’s the question of emissions testing again. And, EFI isn’t simple.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
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Thank you for the intake info.
We do have emissions inspections. Visual and exhaust check. Smog said we can update the carb to new. We did not ask about a manifold and are willing to should it prove to be a worthy upgrade. We have been through a factory remanufactured 4 barrel Holley from Summit. It failed smog due to a vacuum leak from the throttle body seal of carb. Mechanic advised it may take a few carbs before receiving one with a good throttle body seal. Also, said we can put a new carb on. The factory carb is 600cfm. A friend had no problem smogging a mild cam, 750cfm, 460 here in California. I understand this is too much for my stock engine now. Thank you. Planning on the 625cfm described earlier in this thread. Unless someone advises another direction. EFI seems like it will correct the hot fuel system and that is attractive. Not simple is not attractive. I do live in the mountains, tow a 24' trailer and it is in the 90 degree range often. Currently redoing the fuel system and doing my best to ensure there is NO HFS problems. There must be a smooth performing HFS solution or trouble shooting guide from the factory. Or a skilled mechanical expert on those systems. So many are on the road or have been.
85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto |
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Looking at the 1901 on Summit Racing site, it seems the fuel inlet is on the back of the engine.
Anyone install this carb or similar setup for stock 460 with Hot Fuel System? Seems like the fuel line will be even warmer running along the firewall. Is it ok to run rubber fuel line? Better to have new steel lines made?
85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto |
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I have the big brother to the 1901, the 750 CFM Street Demon, on Dad’s engine. I haven’t installed the engine in the truck yet so don’t have real-world experience with the carb. (In fact, I’m going EFI on the engine, which is one reason I can speak to the complexity of EFI.)
But Tim Meyer ran the engine with that carb on the dyno, and then swapped to a 750 CFM Holley for testing. He said that the Holley put out slightly more power at WOT, but he was pleased with the Street Demon and thought it might have had more part-throttle power and better economy. Since I don’t run WOT very often I’m not worried about a slight loss in power, and I like the design of the Street Demon. Speaking of design, in theory there aren’t huge problems with over-carbing an engine if you use a carb with a vacuum or velocity-operated secondary. Those secondaries shouldn’t open until the engine needs the extra flow, and even then should do so smoothly. Yes, a larger carb usually has large primaries so you lose some part-throttle response, but the Street Demon’s primaries are very small so that isn’t an issue. However, if you do go with a large carb then I would recommend a carb that has easily-adjustable secondary opening points. That eliminates the Carter AFB/Edelbrock Performer carbs as changing the opening point requires full disassembly of the carb and welding weight to or grinding weight off of an arm. Instead, in the Edelbrock line go with the Thunder series, which has an easily-adjustable secondary opening. But, the Street Demon also has that feature. 👍
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
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In reply to this post by Edward Michael
Oops, I missed the bit about hot fuel. The factory system works with the Holley, but I’m not sure about using it with an Edelbrock, which doesn’t like more than 6 psi of fuel pressure. So I’m running a dead-head style regulator on Big Blue to ensure that the pressure is below 6.
But, when I pull the engine to seal up the leaks I’m going to replace the hot-fuel system with a return-style regulator and remove the factory hot-fuel system. That will return some fuel to keep it cool and will keep the pressure down - all in one device. As for rubber lines, yes they work. I’m running the newer ethanol-resistant hose in Big Blue’s fuel system with no problem. But I’m thinking of shielding the lines from heat with a sleeve made for that purpose. That’s because the black hose will absorb more heat from the engine than shiny steel line will. However, it also insulated to some extent, although I don’t know how much. So, I’ll use the sleeve for insurance.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
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My 650 Thunder will be up for sale soon.
For the Holley you can get the quick change spring kit, so you don't have to take everything apart.
Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake. Too much other stuff to mention. |
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Jim - Your 650 is currently set up for a 460, right?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Thank you Gary.
Did some reading on fuel line and interested in your research and choice of ethanol resistant fuel line and heat shield. Next to research the dead-head style regulator and interested in your part choice. Very interested in the return-style regulator part choice and HFS removal as the thought did come up that there may be a better design than was available in the 80's. It's possible!-) Also sitting with carb choice... Not sure about the fuel line route on the firewall. That alone stopped me from ordering the eddy today.
85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto |
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Here are some ideas on the heat shield:
https://www.amazon.com/Heat-Shielded-Sleeve-Lines-Electrical-Wiring/dp/B015S65VJ0/ref=sr_1_9?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1486428652&sr=1-9&keywords=fuel+line+insulationhttps://www.amazon.com/Heatshield-Products-204011-Sleeve-Roll/dp/B00FS6CIA6/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1486428652&sr=1-1&keywords=fuel+line+insulationhttps://www.amazon.com/010403-0-75-Aluminized-Sleeving-Sheath/dp/B000E267M4/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1486428652&sr=1-2&keywords=fuel+line+insulationAnd here’s the return-style fuel pressure regulator I’m going to use: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_pumps_regulators_and_filters/regulators/carbureted_regulators/parts/12-803BP. Ford’s hot-fuel handling system is just an orifice that allows any vapor that builds up to escape back to the tank. Or, a very small amount of fuel. But it doesn’t regulate the pressure at all. This one will. Don’t miss that Jim is selling his Thunder Series carb. He has it on his 460 so it should bolt right on yours.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Now you guys got me thinking new Edelbrock!
Gary, do you know which adapters I need to go from the stock Holley to an Edelbrock on my 460, C6? I see a 1483 and a 1495 on their website. Also, does anyone know the fuel pressure on the "hot fuel" setup?
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold 1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD 1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E Arizona |
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Thank you Gary.
Any input on ethanol resistant fuel hose for carbureted application?
85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto |
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In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
How much for that Thunder 650?
Where's it shipping from? When is it available?
85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto |
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Hey Gary,
Since you guys are discussing carbs here... I bought some used SBF parts from a local guy, one of which was a 600 CFM Holley 4160 w/electric choke and vac secondaries. The guy told me that the carb was supposed to be only 4-5 years old, but I talked to a guy at Holley and he seemed to think that the carb was the older of two possible years (2001 or 2011). Anyway, I am pulling my 302 out soon for some refresh work. Not machining...compression and oil pressure are both very good, but the oil pan leaks, both valve covers leak, the intake to block seals are leaking, my factory 2bbl carb leaks, and I need to remove all of the smog equipment and crusty manifolds, cats, etc, etc. As the truck runs right now, it's actually pretty good on fuel (for an old truck). If I install this Holley 4160, is it going to make this thing a pig on fuel? (My intent was to use an Edelbrock Performer 289 intake manifold). And, part two I guess...if it IS going to make it a pig on fuel, will it be difficult for me to get the thing dialed in and working properly? I was planning to install an A/F gauge, at least temporarily. I have never worked on or tuned a 4bbl carb before. I've re-jetted lots of motorcycle carbs over the years, and I've tuned EFI engines, but automotive carbs are all new to me. I bought a couple Holley carb books for casual reading to get up to speed on these things, but I'm still green as grass. I guess option #2 for me is to just buy a reman 2bbl for my truck and button it all back up the way it was (without all the smog equip), and forget about the Holley. Any thoughts or comments good or bad?
1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold. 1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021. 1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995 |
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Grumpin - On the fuel pressure for the hot fuel setup, I don’t know. The problem is that I have the orifice and return ahead of my regulator and gauge, so don’t have a way of measuring since the return bleeds off the excess pressure.
As for those parts, 1483 is for the kickdown linkage to the C6. And 1493 is to relocate the throttle bracket - the one to the rear of the carb that bolts to the manifold. But if you aren’t changing the manifold out you don’t need it. The need arises because some of the manifolds reposition the carb. I know that is the case with most manifolds on Windsors and Clevelands, but it doesn’t seem to be the case on the 460. Edward - Most new fuel line you can buy today is ethanol resistant. I buy it in bulk at O’Reilly’s and it says that on the side of it. Rembrant - I’m not a fan of Holley carbs for several reasons, and one is just what you asked about - air/fuel ratio. My experience is that out of the box a Holley is very rich at part-throttle. But, it is possible that the one you have has already been re-jetted to a more reasonable part-throttle AFR. You could figure that out by tearing it down and comparing the jetting to the stock jetting, which would give you a chance to learn how a Holley goes together before installing it. Having said that, several very experienced people on here like Holleys, so don’t take my word for it. As for tuning, the easiest and most accurate way is with a wide-band meter. I have one that also has a vacuum readout, and that makes dialing in the enrichment circuit much easier since you can see the AFR change and the vacuum where it does by looking at one gauge.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
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In reply to this post by grumpin
Fuel pressure on the hot fuel handling package is 5-7 psi according to AllData, I was thinking it was even lower, on the order of 3-6 psi. I know it isn't super high, it depends on the vapor return bleed in the separator to vent bubbles back to the tank.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413 |
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More impetus for a page on 460 fuel systems, inc hot-fuel handling. Hmmm, I have a few minutes.....
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
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Thank you Gary and lebaron!
I'll have to decide what to do. Haven't been around carbs much lately, a lot of how it acts is operator induced. What I've learned lately is don't touch that throttle unless absolutely necessary. And only one pump in the morning!
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold 1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD 1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E Arizona |
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Ford used to recommend a 600 CFM for the 302s in their muscle parts books back in the late 60s/early 70s, we used to sell a Holley replacement, part number was a 1-191 in I remember correctly. I put one on our 1970 1/2 Falcon with a set of 289 4V heads, 351W exhaust manifolds and used 1969 front pipes, and all the rest of the exhaust was 1970 for a 351C 4V. Intake was a 1965 289 unit like the heads.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413 |
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
I will rise to your bait, and raise you some, Weber is by far the absolute best carburetor, however, a Skinner Union is as simple a piece of machinery as can possibly be, only 2 moving parts, no accelerator pump or choke (strangler as the Brits would say).
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413 |
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