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3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

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Steve83

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Banned User

Your last diagram (p.17) in the article lacks any circuit protection on the new charge cable. Something should be indicated; either fusible link, fuse, or C.B. But I think it's always worth mentioning that the best "new charge cable" for the money is an old (original) 130A 3G harness, like this (or any other):

You asked for it...
On the ammeter tab: "myriad" doesn't use any article (a, an, the) - it's just "There are myriad others."
On the wiring tab: item 1 & the charge light instructions mention the starter solenoid, but it's the relay ONLY. The alt should never be wired to the solenoid, even if a solenoid starter has been swapped onto a bullnose. The big diagram also has the relay incorrectly labelled, and the wrong/incomplete wiring for the voltmeter. Instead of giving vague rules about the fuse size, why not just say the Ford size? 175A fuse or 12ga fuse link for all 3Gs regardless of output. The word on clocking section says "...the alternator in not..."; should be "...IS not...". In the red choke section, "...to convert to the choke to..." - three "to"s is one "to" too many.

"...if your just..." should be "you're". "...with the engine is running..." should either drop the "is", or change "with" to "when". The first mention of "Holley" is missing the e.
On the "choosing" tab: in the LRC section, "...one more things..." should be "thing". "Remember that a single v-belt's limitations?" needs to be fixed somehow; maybe "Remember that single v-belt's limitation?" "...for from $78 for..." is awkward, as is the "currently" followed by a date. It could be simplified to "In Feb. 2019, DB Elec.'s price on the F4PZ-10346-B (w/1yr. warranty) ranged from $78 (130A) to $278 (220A)."
On the "overview" tab: the 1G has a remote V.R.; the 2G & 3G have external V.R.; the 4G & 6G have internal V.R. The 3G uses precisely the same technology as all other alternators - the leap was in safety/reliability. The 3G-up battery stud is essentially identical to the 1G. Even with no extra loads, the 3G is still a worthwhile swap. IMO, the ammeter doesn't function anyway, so losing it doesn't lose functionality.

Obviously, some of that is my opinion & style. So use what you want (if any) & ignore the rest.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

I did ask for it, and I certainly appreciate your detailed response. Thanks, I'll work through it later today.

Hopefully by then I'll have a call back from Hagan at DB Electric. I just called and got his voice mail so left a message.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

In reply to this post by Steve83

Just FYI, I'm slowly working through your suggestions, Steve. To this point I've split off the choke verbiage into another tab, but need to finish that work and include a pic of the 3G charge cable, which I think I have.

But as I think about it in the light of day (literally BRIGHT sunlight), I wonder if it is appropriate to have the discussion I'm envisioning about chokes here. Instead, why not put it on the Fuel Systems/Carburetors, Chokes, & EFI/Chokes page and refer to it on the Wiring It tab here?

Basically nothing about the 3G conversion modifies the choke or its wiring, although it would be good to have the pic of the Ford charge cable on the 3G page so the reader can see which wire is the stator wire.

Thoughts, y'all?

Lots more to do. Thanks for the help....

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

The stator wire is in the 3G regulator plug, not the charge cable.

I think a pic of a 3G conversion regulator pigtail, showing lt grn/red excite, yel/wht sense and wht/blk stator wires would be good.

This could be shown on the back of an alternator and where the stator plugs, and the sense wire going to the output lug.

Pretty sure this was on RJM's site back when it existed.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Jim - Great minds, and all that. Here's what I was doing as you were typing.

As for the stator wire being in the regulator plug and not the "charge cable", I was referring to the whole cable that you get from the salvage as being the charge cable. My bad.

But here you can see the white/black stator wire coming out of the alternator, between the output terminal and the regulator plug, and wrapping back into the regulator plug in the middle position. And that's where you'd want to tap in to run the 7v choke, which is probably what we need to be saying on the 3G Conversion page.

And, I scanned in a page from the 1996 EVTM which shows the alternator and associated wiring. I propose using this as the diagram for the trucks with lights instead of a voltmeter.

But, as I look at the page I get confused. The wiring diagram on the page is for when you have a warning light. But to find how to wire it for a truck w/an ammeter you have to click the left picture of the cabling, which shows the regulator plug upside down, and it says that the "I" wire goes to the green/red-stripe wire in the old harness.

Don't we need wiring diagrams for with a warning light, like the '96 one, and with an ammeter? Why rely on the reader clicking the proper picture to read the instructions?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Gary,
I never had an actual Ford harness in my truck. So I'm seeing the sense wire attached to the relay lug and not the alternator output.

My Bullnose charge warning light works.
I have to study the EVTM.

Assuming the excite wire of a ammeter equipped truck just gets key on power from the external regulator.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Jim - If by "sense wire" you mean the yellow/white then it makes sense (

) to me that you'd wrap that right back to the output lug on the alternator instead of taking it up to the fuse link. That way the alternator won't run away with a bad or burned connection.

Also note that even in '96 there's a fuse link and not a real fuse. That seems odd since I thought lots of the later trucks I've pulled parts off of had Mega-fuse holder on the power distribution box. And it kinda complicates telling the reader to use "Ford's fuse size".

As for the "excite wire", that would be the light green/red one, and it does go to key-on power on an ammeter-equipped truck. So, basically the '96 EVTM schematic works for both trucks with a warning lamp and trucks w/an ammeter. Just tie the light green/red wire into the existing light green/red wire and you don't have to know what's further up the wire. Right?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

In my case all I did was connect to the existing green/red.

The bulb lights because it gets power in run and without the alternator turning there's no equal output from the stator.
No need to complicate things.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

I've done a little bit of an update on the Tabbed page and on the Wiring It tab. Basically I traded the schematics to use the 1996 EVTM one. And, I revised the wording a little bit, but didn't get to the bit about the fuse - especially since the '96 EVTM shows a fuse link.

Anyway, please take a look and let me know what you think.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Banned User

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

If by "sense wire" you mean...
..."excite wire"...

I think you (both) would reduce your confusion if you use the designations that Ford uses. Nothing on the alternator gets "excited". The LG/R wire is the I (indicator) wire. Yellow is A (no name I've found in any Ford document). Wh/Bk is S (stator).

Some of this caption is from the Ford coursebook for the Basic Electrical Diagnosis class:

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Steve - That's why I used what is shown on the '96 EVTM, and why the Wiring It tab says:

I: This is the light green/red wire that tells the regulator that the key has been turned to On. This wire will connect to your original light green/red wire, regardless of whether your truck has an ammeter or idiot lights.
A: This is the yellow/white wire that tells the regulator what the alternator's output voltage is. It can go directly to the output stud or it can go to the alternator's side of the fuse/fuse link as shown below. But it should not go to the other side of the fuse/fuse link as if that blows then the alternator's output could go very high and damage could occur.
S: This is the stator output and that wire, which is white/black, wraps back to the middle terminal on the regulator's plug. But, if you have a 7 volt choke be sure to see the Choke tab, above.
B+: This is the output for the alternator and should be wired through the fuse described above to the battery side of the starter relay, frequently called the "solenoid". But not back to the existing black/orange wire in your Bullnose harness!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

This post was updated on .

Gary,

You used quotes, and I used incorrect (though realistic) terminology.
So that part of this discussion is all on me.

Your post above is very clear and has none of my nonsense verbiage.
I say well done!

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Jim - Thanks.

We have to walk a fine line as we document since we have a very wide user base. (I spend time on other mediums and realize that many people don't know - and apparently don't want to know - what the correct terminology is.) We could be absolutely correct and use terminology that people may not understand but is correct in most, although rarely all, Ford documentation. Or we can use correct terminology as well as what people sometimes call the thing.

One such example is the starter "relay",although most (myself included) call it the "solenoid". Relay is the correct term, but if that's the only term we use then many people will not understand. So we need to help them by adding "frequently called the 'solenoid'" to the sentence.

The latter is where I'd like us to go for our documentation, so need everyone's help in getting the right balance of correctness and colloquialism. In other words, if you see something that isn't clear, please point it out.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Banned User

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary Lewis wrote

That's why I used what is shown...

I'm talking about in your discussion here, too. If you get in the habit of always using the same term (usually the Ford designation) for something, it's easier for anyone to understand what you mean each time (indicator vs. exciter; relay vs. solenoid; etc.). If you switch between names, some people will think you mean different things.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Ok folks, time for an update. I've worked on the Wiring It tab on the new/to-be page and think I'm done, but want your input. (Note: Let's concentrate on this one tab for the moment.)

Steve - I believe I've addressed all of your concerns that are/were related to that tab. But please check it out.

All - I've added pics of my alternator in order to reference the wiring thereof, the grounding, and the clocking. Hopefully that has helped.

But, one thing I'm not really happy about are the pics of the fuses. Should I spend some time there getting better pics?

The 3G conversion page is one of our most-frequently visited pages, so I'd like to get it "right". But, at some point it is a case of diminishing returns, so please let me know when I have "arrived".

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Banned User

These are just comments for your consideration - don't take them as "mistakes to be corrected".

Gary Lewis wrote

...not powder coated.

Whether powdered, painted, or not; ALL the mounting surfaces need to be cleaned down to shiny metal. That includes the internal surfaces where the rectifier body/heat sink touches the case.

And Ford recommends applying electrical grease (NOT dielectric, thermal, conductive, chassis...) to almost all terminals; especially the heavy alternator output (which is what that grease was created for). I also put it on the freshly-polished ground points to keep them shiny longer.

Gary Lewis wrote

...add a ground wire...

That's vague, and dangerous. If someone just adds a tiny wire, it could cause a fire under some circumstances. I'd specify that it be at least the size of the alternator output wire (~8ga), and at most the size of the block ground cable (~4ga).

Gary Lewis wrote

...the alternator's output could go very high...

If that circuit protection opens, the alt output goes to 0A by definition. Its internal voltage (at the rectifier) could go as high as the VR is designed to go, but that won't hurt anything since the alt won't be connected to anything at that moment.

Gary Lewis wrote

...fuses. Should I spend some time there getting better pics?

I'd reduce it to 1 pic of each type, showing the protection (& holder for fuses) on the wiring. You have 1 pic labelled "AMG type", and several more without labels - I'd find a standard & stick to it. Right now, it almost seems like the C.B.s are just variations of the AMG because they seem to be in that series of pics. But I'd certainly include pics of the factory protection; both the early fusible link, and the later AMG/MEGA fuse. Preferably showing them on the factory alternator harnesses, since that's the quickest, cheapest, easiest, safest way to wire one up. And it automatically causes a bullnose owner to abandon the original Bk/Or wire because the 3G specifically connects at the starter relay.

It solves so many potential problems at once, for the least money & effort.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Steve - Thanks for the input. I’m out at the moment and reading on my phone, but will re-read it again on my ‘puter when I get home and see what I can do.

But I fully agree with your comments on the ground path. And people need to understand that a ground wire needs to be the same size as the charge cable. Good points.

And your thinking about the fuse/breaker Pics is similar to mine. I’ll see what I can do.

Thanks again.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

In reply to this post by Steve83

Steve - I think I've incorporated your suggestions, with the exception of the one on fuses. I don't disagree, but haven't yet found the pics I want to use.

One issue there is that I don't have a good picture of a Ford mega-fuse as part of a 3G harness. Yes, there's yours, but it is really hard to see the fuse itself in that pic. (I know it is there, but....) And, none of the vehicles I've gotten 3G's from used that style of harness. Instead, they've had the charge cable running to the fuse that is part of the power distribution box. But incorporating a PDB into a Bullnose truck is a bit more complex than installing a 3G.

Do you have a better pic of that fuse? Do you know what that harness came from?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Steve83

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Banned User

Gary Lewis wrote

Do you have a better pic of that fuse? Do you know what that harness came from?

I'll look for that harness - I think I still have it somewhere. I assume it came from a '99~03 Expedition, but I wasn't paying attention when I snagged it.

Gary Lewis

Re: 3G Alternator Conversion Page Upgrade.

Administrator

Thanks. A pic would be helpful, but the source would help as well since we could point people at those vehicles.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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