Building a house (off-topic!)

[Ford F834]

Jonathan - It is a shame the heater is doing that. But what you are talking about in a standard tank-type heater for the tub and a tankless heater for the sinks is what I'd like to have for our house. Just a small tankless would do for us and eliminate a whole lot of wasted "hot" water, meaning it was once hot but has to be run out to get to truly hot water.

I agree Gary, that would be ideal to prevent running gallons on water down the drain just to get some warm water to the tap to wash your hands. I will look into this. One complication I have not mentioned yet is that we will need to share the power main with the single wide mobile that our daughter and grandkids are living in, so we will be on a bit of a power budget for high amp appliances. I would go all electric if we could, but I don’t see any way we can run both houses without using propane for cooking. The service is only 100A now, but will be upgraded to at least 200A. My dad asked if I might be able to get 300A, but out here I doubt it. The Unisource guy I talked to wasn’t sure if I could even get 200A, but after coming out he said it would be possible. That was almost two years ago, and I didn’t even know to ask if 300A was a possibility, but I’m not counting on it. The mobile has a 50A sub panel, and I ran another 30A for an electric dryer. So after a 200A upgrade I will have 120A (to possibly 160A per the 120% rule) to power our new house. It’s doable but tight. I won’t be able to afford a bunch of high amp appliances on dedicated circuits. I bought the Rennai tankless heater thinking it could supply the needs of the new house, but it has been a fight and I hope to not need it at all.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary, I may have to run a tankless propane water heater for the master bath because of the whirlpool tub. We already have the tub and the tankless heater right now. I hate it (the tankless heater). For whatever reason, if the tub is filling and you use the sink (hot or cold), even just a quick spurt to rinse your fingers etc., the hot water heater throws a flame out code and runs cold. You have to shut all valves and try again. I thought maybe it was due to our fairly low water pressure, but the pressure fluctuates between pump cycles and that never results in a flame out. Running a tablespoon of water out of the sink shouldn’t drop the pressure more than the range built into the pressure switch. I’ve gone though all of the manuals and troubleshooting literature and can’t figure it out. I’ve never been very happy with the maximum temperature output either, but it is doing the job for now. It was not a cheap unit either... it’s about a $600 Rennai. I would like to get away from tankless and just have one good electric tank heater for the home. Maybe a point of use for the sink and let the water run to temp for the tub and shower... the tub isn’t enormous for a corner whirlpool, it holds 73 gallons to the overflow. Typically we only fill it part way and the lower oval basin is about like any other tub. But my wife is a hard working RN who is suffering from rheumatoid arthritis and it’s getting worse quickly. A hot messaging tub that works right is a must.

Jim, I will have to look into the GSHP in more depth. At first blush it seems prohibitively expensive, but I don’t know exactly what I would need. It definitely pays dividends in the long run, and it looks like there are some Federal tax incentives in place through January 2022. Digging is pretty difficult here... there is a LOT of rock in these alluvial soils. I assume these systems are beyond backhoe depth? Seems like most of the install companies are drill operations.

Jonathan, I know that the Rennai is too touchy. Mandates and a built-in market have made the product "good enough" for 93%, but incredibly frustrating for the few outliers.

Everybody wants one but they are not for everybody.

Specific model???

You need to be on top of descaling the heat exchanger when you use one with hard water. AMHIK!

Because you don't want to be paying for that, believe me. (Citric acid is your friend)

We had a Thermar tankless heater on propane back in the late '70's.

Was a huge step up from floor standing tanks that would always get flooded out.

Keeping 50 gallons of water piping hot is pretty wasteful

What is the cut in/out pressure of your pump switch?

Moving from a tiny Extrol to an actual well tank would help a lot

How big is your tubing going to and from the unit?

What kind of manifold are you using after the unit?

I will ask a couple of my plumber friends if they have ideas.

Those Rennai's do not like pressure spikes or drops.

With early ones you could remote the flow sensor.

GSHP depth depends on the temperature gradient, and how deep you need to go for not only stability, but also enough to sink the heat from the loop.

Your lack of ground moisture hurts heat transfer.

Having to drill for heat loops may make for a higher up front cost, but ive never seen a situation that puts the ROI out more than five years, and the savings after that are awesome.

I know drill rigs are not cheap.

But the building industry is evolving every day.

It wasn't but a few years ago that bringing a concrete pump on a residential job was unheard of.

I will qualify this by saying where I live the geology is very different.

There is an incredible amount of granite and we got scraped right down to it 10,000 years ago in the last ice age.

Long Island Sound was formed by the edge of the glacier, and all of Long Island is just the terminal moraine (berm pushed up by the plow)

So drilling here can get expensive fast, but shallow systems are a lot more prone to damage and failure in my experience.

Drilled holes allow for a lot of length in very little space, but you have to backfill carefully.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I agree Gary, that would be ideal to prevent running gallons on water down the drain just to get some warm water to the tap to wash your hands. I will look into this. One complication I have not mentioned yet is that we will need to share the power main with the single wide mobile that our daughter and grandkids are living in, so we will be on a bit of a power budget for high amp appliances. I would go all electric if we could, but I don’t see any way we can run both houses without using propane for cooking. The service is only 100A now, but will be upgraded to at least 200A. My dad asked if I might be able to get 300A, but out here I doubt it. The Unisource guy I talked to wasn’t sure if I could even get 200A, but after coming out he said it would be possible. That was almost two years ago, and I didn’t even know to ask if 300A was a possibility, but I’m not counting on it. The mobile has a 50A sub panel, and I ran another 30A for an electric dryer. So after a 200A upgrade I will have 120A (to possibly 160A per the 120% rule) to power our new house. It’s doable but tight. I won’t be able to afford a bunch of high amp appliances on dedicated circuits. I bought the Rennai tankless heater thinking it could supply the needs of the new house, but it has been a fight and I hope to not need it at all.

I've never seen a 300A service.

60, 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1,000.

That's about as big as I've ever seen residential. 😲

But, like I said, very different locales and climates.

Be glad you don't get ice storms and have trees.

As remote as places are out there it could be weeks to repair in a major event.

[FuzzFace2]

I've never seen a 300A service.

60, 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1,000.

That's about as big as I've ever seen residential. 😲

But, like I said, very different locales and climates.

Be glad you don't get ice storms and have trees.

As remote as places are out there it could be weeks to repair in a major event.

Cant help on any of this but what is the story on solar power?

Panels on the roof if roof was built for them, would keep the hot sun from beating down and heating the house that way so less cooling needed.

I know you said you have sky lights I would think you could place the panels around them.

Again it would be a up front cost but I think you would then get the power needed to run your hose and the mobile home next door.

You might get kick back for it too?

When we lived in CT we had panels installed on the roof. They could not be put on the "sunny side" because of pitch but added them to the other side.

They were installed for free as the company that installed gets the kick back but we got the savings of power not used.

I wished I could say what that saving was and if it helped with the sun / heat load during the summer but we moved to NC before the system was up and running.

Here in NC we looked into panels but we would have to pay for everything unlike in CT.

I do believe it would cut down on the heat the sun puts on the roof of the house so it would be cooler so less AC needed so between less AC and the panels I think we would be in pretty good shape in the payback side.

We need to sit down and look this over again as it has been 6 years since we first looked.

I can also put panels on my garage and I know what would help in the summer as you can feel the heat come from the roof when you walk in the bays.

I also have land I could put them on. Farmers sell or leas land that panel farms are built on as they get more money from that than crops.

Dave ----

[Ford F834]

Jonathan, I know that the Rennai is too touchy. Mandates and a built-in market have made the product "good enough" for 93%, but incredibly frustrating for the few outliers.

Everybody wants one but they are not for everybody.

Specific model???

You need to be on top of descaling the heat exchanger when you use one with hard water. AMHIK!

Because you don't want to be paying for that, believe me. (Citric acid is your friend)

We had a Thermar tankless heater on propane back in the late '70's.

Was a huge step up from floor standing tanks that would always get flooded out.

Keeping 50 gallons of water piping hot is pretty wasteful

What is the cut in/out pressure of your pump switch?

Moving from a tiny Extrol to an actual well tank would help a lot

How big is your tubing going to and from the unit?

What kind of manifold are you using after the unit?

I will ask a couple of my plumber friends if they have ideas.

Those Rennai's do not like pressure spikes or drops.

With early ones you could remote the flow sensor.

GSHP depth depends on the temperature gradient, and how deep you need to go for not only stability, but also enough to sink the heat from the loop.

Your lack of ground moisture hurts heat transfer.

Having to drill for heat loops may make for a higher up front cost, but ive never seen a situation that puts the ROI out more than five years, and the savings after that are awesome.

I know drill rigs are not cheap.

But the building industry is evolving every day.

It wasn't but a few years ago that bringing a concrete pump on a residential job was unheard of.

I will qualify this by saying where I live the geology is very different.

There is an incredible amount of granite and we got scraped right down to it 10,000 years ago in the last ice age.

Long Island Sound was formed by the edge of the glacier, and all of Long Island is just the terminal moraine (berm pushed up by the plow)

So drilling here can get expensive fast, but shallow systems are a lot more prone to damage and failure in my experience.

Drilled holes allow for a lot of length in very little space, but you have to backfill carefully.

Thanks for the info Jim. My Rennai is a V65e. The supply line to it is 3/4” and the service line is 3/4” to the “dwelling” where it reduces down to 1/2” pex. There is a shark bite T and one side goes to the tub and the other goes to the sink and dishwasher. That’s it. No manifolds. The distance from the pressure tank to the water heater is about 10’ and the distance from the heater to the point(s) of use is about another 8-10’ respectively. I shouldn’t have much friction loss. The pump cuts in at 55psi and cuts out at 60psi. It’s low but not that low. I have flushed it twice, both times with vinegar as per the manual, but if citric acid is okay I will use that on the next flush. I read that would void the warranty but since I rednecked it all myself I’m not worried about warranty, just damaging the unit.

Dave, I definitely plan to add solar panels to our roof, which is part of the choice of orientation. If you have a stick built house, you can get some nice subsidies to help pay for it (obviously you need to feed into the grid if you do this). My first priority is to get the house up and pass move in inspection. Other features will have to wait. Our living situation is currently unacceptable, not to mention breaking quite a few rules. I’m not proud but we do what we have to do to take care of family and building the house is the corrective action. Once we have taken that step others will follow such as solar power and a well.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thanks for the info Jim. My Rennai is a V65e. The supply line to it is 3/4” and the service line is 3/4” to the “dwelling” where it reduces down to 1/2” pex. There is a shark bite T and one side goes to the tub and the other goes to the sink and dishwasher. That’s it. No manifolds. The distance from the pressure tank to the water heater is about 10’ and the distance from the heater to the point(s) of use is about another 8-10’ respectively. I shouldn’t have much friction loss. The pump cuts in at 55psi and cuts out at 60psi. It’s low but not that low. I have flushed it twice, both times with vinegar as per the manual, but if citric acid is okay I will use that on the next flush. I read that would void the warranty but since I rednecked it all myself I’m not worried about warranty, just damaging the unit.

Dave, I definitely plan to add solar panels to our roof, which is part of the choice of orientation. If you have a stick built house, you can get some nice subsidies to help pay for it (obviously you need to feed into the grid if you do this). My first priority is to get the house up and pass move in inspection. Other features will have to wait. Our living situation is currently unacceptable, not to mention breaking quite a few rules. I’m not proud but we do what we have to do to take care of family and building the house is the corrective action. Once we have taken that step others will follow such as solar power and a well.

Jonathan, i'm saying you need to keep on top of scale.

And you seem to be doing that!

I've seen heat exchangers that look fossilized, or like a health class poster about arterial plaque.

And people wonder why the flow is bad and "that piece of junk" doesn't get hot anymore...

Using vinegar or citric acid crystals is like the difference between degreasing your engine with Dawn or kerosene.

One is going to be a lot quicker and easier.

But if misused could catch fire.

We are responsible adults (well... you are! 😜)

Don't mix it too strong or leave it in there too long.

I was asking about the actual piping to see if something popped out at me.

Pressure seems adequate.

A 1/2" Sharkbite can get pretty narrow, given the plastic sleeves inside the pex.

And you would probably be better with a 1/2x3/4x1/2 fitting.

Pex, by virtue of the fittings inside the tube doesn't act like copper, and those changes in direction are even more restrictive than normal.

That's why pex should be on a manifold with every fixture having a home run using 90* supports instead of elbows. (Or any fittings, if you can)

Best practices, anyway.

We all know reality gets in the way sometimes.

A small dedicated DHW Extrol between the heater and fixtures would damp pressure drop.

It might help to have "more distance" between the pressure tank and the heater itself to damp the pump cycling. If it is the pump cycling that is causing the heater to throw a code.

This could be a bigger tank, a rubber snubber like you'd see in an air system, or maybe even just a coil of pex.

I'm not certain if it's an answer. More conjecture on my part.

I will ask a pro.

Solar is great and all, but I wouldn't go that route (grid tied) if I didn't have my own reserve storage and a transfer switch I could control.

Pumping excess back into the grid isn't profitable for utilities

Unfortunately energy companies have lobbyists and deep pockets.

I'm stopping at that before it gets political.

 

[Ford F834]

Jonathan, i'm saying you need to keep on top of scale.

And you seem to be doing that!

I've seen heat exchangers that look fossilized, or like a health class poster about arterial plaque.

And people wonder why the flow is bad and "that piece of junk" doesn't get hot anymore...

Using vinegar or citric acid crystals is like the difference between degreasing your engine with Dawn or kerosene.

One is going to be a lot quicker and easier.

But if misused could catch fire.

We are responsible adults (well... you are! 😜)

Don't mix it too strong or leave it in there too long.

I was asking about the actual piping to see if something popped out at me.

Pressure seems adequate.

A 1/2" Sharkbite can get pretty narrow, given the plastic sleeves inside the pex.

And you would probably be better with a 1/2x3/4x1/2 fitting.

Pex, by virtue of the fittings inside the tube doesn't act like copper, and those changes in direction are even more restrictive than normal.

That's why pex should be on a manifold with every fixture having a home run using 90* supports instead of elbows. (Or any fittings, if you can)

Best practices, anyway.

We all know reality gets in the way sometimes.

A small dedicated DHW Extrol between the heater and fixtures would damp pressure drop.

It might help to have "more distance" between the pressure tank and the heater itself to damp the pump cycling. If it is the pump cycling that is causing the heater to throw a code.

This could be a bigger tank, a rubber snubber like you'd see in an air system, or maybe even just a coil of pex.

I'm not certain if it's an answer. More conjecture on my part.

I will ask a pro.

Solar is great and all, but I wouldn't go that route (grid tied) if I didn't have my own reserve storage and a transfer switch I could control.

Pumping excess back into the grid isn't profitable for utilities

Unfortunately energy companies have lobbyists and deep pockets.

I'm stopping at that before it gets political.

Jim, I plumbed the hot water with 3/4” to the dwelling because I wanted the tub to fill in a reasonable amount of time. Then I get the faucet out and the little hoses going from the mixer valve to the spout are tiny, like 1/8” inside diameter or less. With our merger pressure it still takes a looooooong time to fill. I’m disappointed. I guess my point is the 1/2” shark bite is far from being the bottle neck. Also, the pump cutting in and out has never caused the flame out code. Only running both the tub and the sink at once. It does it most in cold weather, I’m guessing because the flame is running more of the time?

I agree about the solar panels. That’s one reason I’m not diving right in. I get that selling the power (from subsidized panels) might reduce your overall electric expense, but the subsidy is primarily meeting a renewable energy agenda. I am in favor of renewable energy, but I would rather pay for my own panels, and reap more of the benefit. ‘Nuf said... as you put it... before it treads political waters.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim, I plumbed the hot water with 3/4” to the dwelling because I wanted the tub to fill in a reasonable amount of time. Then I get the faucet out and the little hoses going from the mixer valve to the spout are tiny, like 1/8” inside diameter or less. With our merger pressure it still takes a looooooong time to fill. I’m disappointed. I guess my point is the 1/2” shark bite is far from being the bottle neck. Also, the pump cutting in and out has never caused the flame out code. Only running both the tub and the sink at once. It does it most in cold weather, I’m guessing because the flame is running more of the time?

I agree about the solar panels. That’s one reason I’m not diving right in. I get that selling the power (from subsidized panels) might reduce your overall electric expense, but the subsidy is primarily meeting a renewable energy agenda. I am in favor of renewable energy, but I would rather pay for my own panels, and reap more of the benefit. ‘Nuf said... as you put it... before it treads political waters.

These things are meant to run continuously when they sense flow, and throttle rather than cutting on and off.

There's going to be a much higher temperature delta in winter because your tank and plumbing aren't deep underground.

You get a flame out code because the output temp sensor sees a tiny drop in water temperature when the other faucet is cracked open.

If it noted that the flow rate increases it shouldn't throw a code, it should just increase the flame.

Again, without getting political, it's another case of "saving us, from ourselves"

[ArdWrknTrk]

These things are meant to run continuously when they sense flow, and throttle rather than cutting on and off.

There's going to be a much higher temperature delta in winter because your tank and plumbing aren't deep underground.

You get a flame out code because the output temp sensor sees a tiny drop in water temperature when the other faucet is cracked open.

If it noted that the flow rate increases it shouldn't throw a code, it should just increase the flame.

Again, without getting political, it's another case of "saving us, from ourselves"

The only other thing I can think of is that you're on propane and pressure drops when it is cold out.

Here where I live 90% are on piped natural gas and we don't see this, but low gas pressure (sensor pressure, not reality) can cause those units to trip off.

I'm going to ask Bill (third generation plumber) who deals mostly with Naiven, but has LOTS of troubleshooting experience what his thoughts are.

I don't think there's anything he hasn't encountered (yet)

[FuzzFace2]

The only other thing I can think of is that you're on propane and pressure drops when it is cold out.

Here where I live 90% are on piped natural gas and we don't see this, but low gas pressure (sensor pressure, not reality) can cause those units to trip off.

I'm going to ask Bill (third generation plumber) who deals mostly with Naiven, but has LOTS of troubleshooting experience what his thoughts are.

I don't think there's anything he hasn't encountered (yet)

Last thing on the solar panels the company that was installing them was also working on battery storage it just was not approved at the time of install for us.

We were more looking to lower our bill at the time but also "save us from our selves" LOL

Dave ----