New Member New Build, looking for Direction

[Jbird2200]

I can back up Jim on some specifics. Powerstroke requires both an EEC-V computer and an IDM (Injector Driver Module). The EEC sits inside the cab down low next to the driver's side air box, the IDM goes right behind the very nice PDC (Power Distribution Center). The plus to this is if you want an E4OD, finding a wrecked truck with all the pieces isn't out of the realm of possible, in fact I know where there is a 1996 F350 with a PSD and E4OD.

Radiator and support, Diesel any version has a totally different radiator and support, much deeper for one thing, also has two battery locations, PSD has a huge air filter and inlet that actually covers the top of the left side battery (Left or Right refers to location as you sit in the truck). Frame, the later (at least 1990) HD (over 8500 GVW) has the same front shape as a Bullnose, but does not have the bumper bolt holes. The light duty frames from 1994-96 have the crumple zone, they also have driver side airbags.

Electrical, Bullnose trucks have a continuous front harness (14401 group) that is engine (gas or Diesel) specific along with some very strange design work (I want to know what they were on). 1987-1991 there is a large round 75 or so bulkhead bolt together connector for everything outside the cab, 1992-1996/7 there are two rectangular connectors, a large 76 pin for everything underhood and the transmission/transfer case, a smaller 24 pin one for the rear chassis harness.

IDI turbo Diesels used a TCM (Transmission Controller Module) for the E4OD as those engines still have a mechanical injection system. Relative RPM differences, Darth has a 3.55 gear, with a C6, I was typically turning 2700 +/- RPM depending on load, terrain and wind at 55-60 mph, with the E4OD, now around 15-1600 same conditions but in 4th lockup, to show the amount a torque converter slips, I had a right good load on a heavy trailer coming through the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, upgrade, downshifted to 3rd, rpm went to 2700, lockup clutch re-engaged, rpm dropped to 2200, so torque converter was taking 500 rpm and turning it into heat.

I have lots of pictures of Darth's evolution (not as many as Gary though) if you want more information. He has a 1996 interior in the 1986 cab. One more item, the E4OD issue may only affect standard cabs, I had plenty of room under Darth's cab, however, I believe some of it may be due to being an F350 Crew Cab as it seems all crew cabs got the "tall tunnel" front floor pan.

Thank you to all of you. The information provided will certainly save me much time, money, and aggravation.

I've pretty well scrapped the idea of the powerstroke. While those trucks seem to be much more available in my area and the power is much desired, I don't want this to be a 5 year project either, and the benefits just don't seem to be worth the effort/cost.

I will primarily be using this truck as a weekend warrior. Towing, but not necessarily heavy loads will be roughly once a month.

A few more questions that after some searching, I'm still uncertain of.

I'm starting to narrow down the options. I'll be buying a complete donor truck regardless.

I think I've narrowed it down to either an 87-91 IDI 5 (ZF) speed 4x4 extended cab, or an 89-91 IDI E40D 4x4 extended cab. Not going to be exactly easy to find, but I'll travel (if anyone happens to know where one might be).

Couple questions:

1. Going to an E40D, the above things previously mentioned in other posts are required. What about the shift patter for the sake of the dash? My 84' is a C6 auto truck originally. From what I can tell there are the same number of shift points for display/shifter purposes. C6 = PRND21 and E40D = PRN(OD)21. For the sake of wanting to maintain the original interior I have, is the E40D a much better option?

2. I'll be cutting into the floor of the truck regardless as I'm going to 4x4. Can anyone confirm ZF5 vs E40D fitment in an extended cab bullnose? I'm assuming the ZF5 just require replacement/cut of current tunnel/cover and sounds like E40D might? require modification?

3. After some consideration, I don't know that the option of swapping everything into this truck and then converting to 4x4 is such a great idea. I'd literally have to swap everything...I only have a clean interior and body on a pretty bare frame. There is some wiring, which appears complete. I need to reassess exactly what all is still there. But, am I going about this the most effecient way (Body swap vs. entire drivetrain swap and then 4x4 conversion?). Thoughts/opinions are very much welcomed.

The guy I bought this from had mentioned he had superduty axles for it as well that he'd sell as he was planning to build up new radius arms and mount those, but that sounds like more fab work that I'm likely comfortable with, and I'd have to hire that work out.

4. For anyone who has swapped cabs/beds, is it worth it to have a post-style lift? I've considered buying one for a few years now, how much easier would it make this whole endeavor?

Regarding my "improved' comment regarding other drivetrain options other than the 460/c6 option, it just seems to me that that is definitely the least efficient option (mpg), and possibly performing option. The only thing I gain by going that route is maintaining the original drivetrain, and thus ease of retaining interior components.

Thanks again for all the comments, much appreciated.

[FuzzFace2]

4. For anyone who has swapped cabs/beds, is it worth it to have a post-style lift? I've considered buying one for a few years now, how much easier would it make this whole endeavor?

I did my stander cab flare side without one. No money or head room for a lift in my garage.

I was able to lift the cab, stripped other than windshield, off the frame my self.

I had plastic horses I could kick under the cab once I lifted it up 1 side at a time.

I had to pull the rear axle to clear the horses so I could pull it out from under the cab.

On a crew cab it may be a little heavy so a crew to help lift would be of help.

Or maybe you can set up a engine crane and a jig made to fit the top to lift the cab off the frame?

Guys make a wood jig to fit across the door openings so not to mark the cab roof that fits the crane.

I did not care as this cab was toast when I bought the truck, roll over.

Dave ----

[Jbird2200]

4. For anyone who has swapped cabs/beds, is it worth it to have a post-style lift? I've considered buying one for a few years now, how much easier would it make this whole endeavor?

I did my stander cab flare side without one. No money or head room for a lift in my garage.

I was able to lift the cab, stripped other than windshield, off the frame my self.

I had plastic horses I could kick under the cab once I lifted it up 1 side at a time.

I had to pull the rear axle to clear the horses so I could pull it out from under the cab.

On a crew cab it may be a little heavy so a crew to help lift would be of help.

Or maybe you can set up a engine crane and a jig made to fit the top to lift the cab off the frame?

Guys make a wood jig to fit across the door openings so not to mark the cab roof that fits the crane.

I did not care as this cab was toast when I bought the truck, roll over.

Dave ----

Thanks Dave, I do have a fairly large engine hoist, and have also considered installing a trolley style hoist in the rafters of my shop, for moderate loads. Either of those would probably suffice.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thank you to all of you. The information provided will certainly save me much time, money, and aggravation.

I've pretty well scrapped the idea of the powerstroke. While those trucks seem to be much more available in my area and the power is much desired, I don't want this to be a 5 year project either, and the benefits just don't seem to be worth the effort/cost.

I will primarily be using this truck as a weekend warrior. Towing, but not necessarily heavy loads will be roughly once a month.

A few more questions that after some searching, I'm still uncertain of.

I'm starting to narrow down the options. I'll be buying a complete donor truck regardless.

I think I've narrowed it down to either an 87-91 IDI 5 (ZF) speed 4x4 extended cab, or an 89-91 IDI E40D 4x4 extended cab. Not going to be exactly easy to find, but I'll travel (if anyone happens to know where one might be).

Couple questions:

1. Going to an E40D, the above things previously mentioned in other posts are required. What about the shift patter for the sake of the dash? My 84' is a C6 auto truck originally. From what I can tell there are the same number of shift points for display/shifter purposes. C6 = PRND21 and E40D = PRN(OD)21. For the sake of wanting to maintain the original interior I have, is the E40D a much better option?

2. I'll be cutting into the floor of the truck regardless as I'm going to 4x4. Can anyone confirm ZF5 vs E40D fitment in an extended cab bullnose? I'm assuming the ZF5 just require replacement/cut of current tunnel/cover and sounds like E40D might? require modification?

3. After some consideration, I don't know that the option of swapping everything into this truck and then converting to 4x4 is such a great idea. I'd literally have to swap everything...I only have a clean interior and body on a pretty bare frame. There is some wiring, which appears complete. I need to reassess exactly what all is still there. But, am I going about this the most effecient way (Body swap vs. entire drivetrain swap and then 4x4 conversion?). Thoughts/opinions are very much welcomed.

The guy I bought this from had mentioned he had superduty axles for it as well that he'd sell as he was planning to build up new radius arms and mount those, but that sounds like more fab work that I'm likely comfortable with, and I'd have to hire that work out.

4. For anyone who has swapped cabs/beds, is it worth it to have a post-style lift? I've considered buying one for a few years now, how much easier would it make this whole endeavor?

Regarding my "improved' comment regarding other drivetrain options other than the 460/c6 option, it just seems to me that that is definitely the least efficient option (mpg), and possibly performing option. The only thing I gain by going that route is maintaining the original drivetrain, and thus ease of retaining interior components.

Thanks again for all the comments, much appreciated.

I wouldn't even consider fuel mileage with a 460.

The difference between 9 & 11 just isn't worth it.

I can see swapping a Bullnose cab on a later chassis.

But if you want to keep the Bullnose interior I'd stick with the 460.

Even an IDI has a completely different cab harness (and that goes from one headlight, into the cab, all through the dash, diesel cluster, different tach, and back to the other headlight.)

And neither of those trucks you've found have compatible fuel sending units.

There is a $70 solution for the fuel senders, but mine seems to have failed in just a couple of months.

Coolant and oil pressure senders could be swapped.

As Jonathan pointed out you need the second battery tray and the nearly impossible radiator support, glow plug controller, fuse panel, (plus another radiator, battery, etc)

If you swap to a 5 speed you need the proper floor pan.

A Zf -5 takes a taller one than a T-19.

The E4OD doesn't need a removable lid, but it does need the hump moved rearward to fit the transfer case.

Honestly... if you're set on a diesel truck sell this one and find a diesel Bullnose.

There are too many pieces and some of them require complete disassembly.

 

[FuzzFace2]

4. For anyone who has swapped cabs/beds, is it worth it to have a post-style lift? I've considered buying one for a few years now, how much easier would it make this whole endeavor?

I did my stander cab flare side without one. No money or head room for a lift in my garage.

I was able to lift the cab, stripped other than windshield, off the frame my self.

I had plastic horses I could kick under the cab once I lifted it up 1 side at a time.

I had to pull the rear axle to clear the horses so I could pull it out from under the cab.

On a crew cab it may be a little heavy so a crew to help lift would be of help.

Or maybe you can set up a engine crane and a jig made to fit the top to lift the cab off the frame?

Guys make a wood jig to fit across the door openings so not to mark the cab roof that fits the crane.

I did not care as this cab was toast when I bought the truck, roll over.

Dave ----

On the bed I used straps over the rafter beams to lift it on & off the many times for fitting the metal floor to the flare sides.

But I first used the crane on the style side bed to get it off its frame.

I did not care the crane hit the bed side as the other side was caved it when it rolled and I needed to place the bed on horses so I could trim the sides off and leave the ribbed floor.

Here you can see the straps hanging

As they say you use what you got and if there's a will there's a way!

Dave ----

[Rusty_S85]

Did your '95 chassis/driveline has a speedo cable connection?

Motorcraft DY588 VSS has a mechanical connection that is plugged but you can still attach a cable to it if you so choose.

https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/speedometer-cable-used-for-efi-conversions-or-cruise-control/

The above sells the DY588 VSS with cable already clipped in place.

This was a possible route I was thinking of going to get a digital speed signal for my truck if Dakota Digital ever releases the RTX cluster for our trucks. I can use the cable to connect to my OE cruise control speed sensor.

My only other option would be to remove the cable at the cruise control speed sensor and thread the Dakota speed sensor to that to get the sensor for my speedometer.

I actually have one of the DY588`s at work I took off a truck we were converting.

[Ford F834]

I wouldn't even consider fuel mileage with a 460.

The difference between 9 & 11 just isn't worth it.

I can see swapping a Bullnose cab on a later chassis.

But if you want to keep the Bullnose interior I'd stick with the 460.

Even an IDI has a completely different cab harness (and that goes from one headlight, into the cab, all through the dash, diesel cluster, different tach, and back to the other headlight.)

And neither of those trucks you've found have compatible fuel sending units.

There is a $70 solution for the fuel senders, but mine seems to have failed in just a couple of months.

Coolant and oil pressure senders could be swapped.

As Jonathan pointed out you need the second battery tray and the nearly impossible radiator support, glow plug controller, fuse panel, (plus another radiator, battery, etc)

If you swap to a 5 speed you need the proper floor pan.

A Zf -5 takes a taller one than a T-19.

The E4OD doesn't need a removable lid, but it does need the hump moved rearward to fit the transfer case.

Honestly... if you're set on a diesel truck sell this one and find a diesel Bullnose.

There are too many pieces and some of them require complete disassembly.

I would respectfully disagree with Jim on the issue of swapping an IDI into a gasser bullnose. The IDI wiring is extremely simple, and would not be difficult to adapt a gas harness to make everything work. There just isn’t all that much diesel specific stuff inside the cab. I know it is parroted everywhere that “the IDI only needs one wire to run” (and it’s true) but even wanting full OEM function it’s just not that much to make happen. I have pulled a couple of bullnose IDI harnesses and they are dead simple like the early DS2 trucks. The core support is a bugger, but if need be the drop down can be grafted on from a Bricknose or Aeronose truck since you are contemplating a donor. If you can’t fabricate you could hire someone to weld it. Just my .02 but changing gas to diesel is the minor modification compared to the 4x4 conversion. That would be more reason to sell and re-buy than wanting to drop a diesel in it.

The main thing about doing a a 4x4 transformation on your existing chassis with a reverse shackle kit and a mono-beam axle is it offers vastly improved ride, strength, and handling compared to a leaf spring F250 twin traction beam axle. That design is not the best. So you are getting an entirely different result. RSK makers now offer kits that fit directly on the 1980-1991 frame horns, so fabrication is minimal. Gary has done this to Big Blue, he probably has a better handle on whether it is more or less work than a body swap.

A ZF5 in a bullnose requires the later “tall” tunnel cover as already mentioned. You will have to accept a slightly tented carpet over the transmission hump, or else replace it with a carpet for a 1988-1996 Supercab. If you want a bullnose-period-correct transfer case shifter you will need to cut a hole for it in the tunnel cover since the later trucks moved it to the floor pan on the side of the hump.

For mpg comparison, I drove a 1986 F250 4x4 6.9L with a ZF5 and 3.55 gears from AZ to CA. It was loaded with about 2,000 lbs in the bed. On slower sections where I was driving 55-65 mph I calculated just over 21mpg. On the interstate at 70-75mph I was getting right about 18mpg. My friend bought it in Washington state and drove it to AZ. It had a C6 in it when he bought it and we did the ZF swap. He was seeing 14-16mpg with 3.55’s and the C6.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I would respectfully disagree with Jim on the issue of swapping an IDI into a gasser bullnose. The IDI wiring is extremely simple, and would not be difficult to adapt a gas harness to make everything work. There just isn’t all that much diesel specific stuff inside the cab. I know it is parroted everywhere that “the IDI only needs one wire to run” (and it’s true) but even wanting full OEM function it’s just not that much to make happen. I have pulled a couple of bullnose IDI harnesses and they are dead simple like the early DS2 trucks. The core support is a bugger, but if need be the drop down can be grafted on from a Bricknose or Aeronose truck since you are contemplating a donor. If you can’t fabricate you could hire someone to weld it. Just my .02 but changing gas to diesel is the minor modification compared to the 4x4 conversion. That would be more reason to sell and re-buy than wanting to drop a diesel in it.

The main thing about doing a a 4x4 transformation on your existing chassis with a reverse shackle kit and a mono-beam axle is it offers vastly improved ride, strength, and handling compared to a leaf spring F250 twin traction beam axle. That design is not the best. So you are getting an entirely different result. RSK makers now offer kits that fit directly on the 1980-1991 frame horns, so fabrication is minimal. Gary has done this to Big Blue, he probably has a better handle on whether it is more or less work than a body swap.

A ZF5 in a bullnose requires the later “tall” tunnel cover as already mentioned. You will have to accept a slightly tented carpet over the transmission hump, or else replace it with a carpet for a 1988-1996 Supercab. If you want a bullnose-period-correct transfer case shifter you will need to cut a hole for it in the tunnel cover since the later trucks moved it to the floor pan on the side of the hump.

For mpg comparison, I drove a 1986 F250 4x4 6.9L with a ZF5 and 3.55 gears from AZ to CA. It was loaded with about 2,000 lbs in the bed. On slower sections where I was driving 55-65 mph I calculated just over 21mpg. On the interstate at 70-75mph I was getting right about 18mpg. My friend bought it in Washington state and drove it to AZ. It had a C6 in it when he bought it and we did the ZF swap. He was seeing 14-16mpg with 3.55’s and the C6.

Well you've done it and I haven't, Jonathan!

Where did you get your Bullnose diesel cluster?

If wanting to do a monobeam 4x4 into an '85 2wd -plus- the diesel, would you still be willing to start with a 2wd 460?

If cab swapping a later truck that needed senders to work with the Bullnose dash???

I'm not saying a 6.9 or 7.3 won't get better mileage!

I'm saying a 4wd 460 will at best pick up a couple of mpg as a manual over the C6.

And I expect Gary is seeing about the limit with a fresh engine, good gears and a Zf-5.

[Gary Lewis]

I would respectfully disagree with Jim on the issue of swapping an IDI into a gasser bullnose. The IDI wiring is extremely simple, and would not be difficult to adapt a gas harness to make everything work. There just isn’t all that much diesel specific stuff inside the cab. I know it is parroted everywhere that “the IDI only needs one wire to run” (and it’s true) but even wanting full OEM function it’s just not that much to make happen. I have pulled a couple of bullnose IDI harnesses and they are dead simple like the early DS2 trucks. The core support is a bugger, but if need be the drop down can be grafted on from a Bricknose or Aeronose truck since you are contemplating a donor. If you can’t fabricate you could hire someone to weld it. Just my .02 but changing gas to diesel is the minor modification compared to the 4x4 conversion. That would be more reason to sell and re-buy than wanting to drop a diesel in it.

The main thing about doing a a 4x4 transformation on your existing chassis with a reverse shackle kit and a mono-beam axle is it offers vastly improved ride, strength, and handling compared to a leaf spring F250 twin traction beam axle. That design is not the best. So you are getting an entirely different result. RSK makers now offer kits that fit directly on the 1980-1991 frame horns, so fabrication is minimal. Gary has done this to Big Blue, he probably has a better handle on whether it is more or less work than a body swap.

A ZF5 in a bullnose requires the later “tall” tunnel cover as already mentioned. You will have to accept a slightly tented carpet over the transmission hump, or else replace it with a carpet for a 1988-1996 Supercab. If you want a bullnose-period-correct transfer case shifter you will need to cut a hole for it in the tunnel cover since the later trucks moved it to the floor pan on the side of the hump.

For mpg comparison, I drove a 1986 F250 4x4 6.9L with a ZF5 and 3.55 gears from AZ to CA. It was loaded with about 2,000 lbs in the bed. On slower sections where I was driving 55-65 mph I calculated just over 21mpg. On the interstate at 70-75mph I was getting right about 18mpg. My friend bought it in Washington state and drove it to AZ. It had a C6 in it when he bought it and we did the ZF swap. He was seeing 14-16mpg with 3.55’s and the C6.

Yes, I've done the D60/SuperDuty springs/RSK swap but haven't done a body swap, so I can't really compare. And I was the very first buyer of Sky Offroad's kit, so there was a bit of "oops" involved. But they got it right and it should be fairly straightforward for others - unless your frame is bent like mine was, which required even more work.

But the work was worth it. I do NOT like the ride of a 4WD 250HD. To me the combo of TTB's and leaf springs is poor. My truck had 1" of travel before hitting the bump stops, so the springs had to be STIFF. But with the new combo I have over 4" of travel when between the axle and bump stop, and the ride is much, much better.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Well you've done it and I haven't, Jonathan!

Where did you get your Bullnose diesel cluster?

If wanting to do a monobeam 4x4 into an '85 2wd -plus- the diesel, would you still be willing to start with a 2wd 460?

If cab swapping a later truck that needed senders to work with the Bullnose dash???

I'm not saying a 6.9 or 7.3 won't get better mileage!

I'm saying a 4wd 460 will at best pick up a couple of mpg as a manual over the C6.

And I expect Gary is seeing about the limit with a fresh engine, good gears and a Zf-5.

Sorry, Jim. Ships/night.

Yes, I'm seeing the limit of a fresh carb'd 460/ZF5/3.55 gears in a heavy truck with 33" tires. I think I can get 12 MPG at a steady 65 MPH. But I know that it doesn't take much to drop it to 11.5 MPG. Wind, hills, faster driving, speed control, etc will do it.